I bet AW, future lover of fireworks, got off on the right foot with Dad by liking loud noises and explosions at the age of 2-3.
Yup! Fritz and Wilhelmine on the other hand got a little grotto with a basin full of fish in July 1715 and they both liked it so much that they didn't want to go to bed: Fritz and Wilhelmine went outside to entertain themselves yesterday; in the middle of the table there was a grotto with jets of water and a basin, where there were small, alive fish which swam; they found it so beautiful that they did not want to get up and go to bed. <333
Also, re: the Dictionary quote, very interesting! She uses it quite often (next to "sage" which I think means "well-behaved" here) and I got the impression that it has a more active connotation then just being regarded a certain way from the outside, be it pretty or cute.
Fritz and Wilhelmine went outside to entertain themselves yesterday; in the middle of the table there was a grotto with jets of water and a basin, where there were small, alive fish which swam; they found it so beautiful that they did not want to get up and go to bed. <333
AWWW! <333 is right.
Also, lol and argh, I typed "Acadamie Francaise" as a placeholder in the draft and meant to fix it after I got all my thoughts down, but forgot: Académie Française. (Confession time: I still have no German or French keyboard layout set up on my laptop, so diacritics have to be specially copy-pasted. At least I managed to get a German keyboard on my phone, which makes things a little easier. Especially autosuggest, which is super helpful when I sort of know the word I want but can't quite spell it. :P)
re: joli, it's also what Heinrich uses in his half German, half French letter to little Ferdinand, the first one preserved, when he's writing from the Silesian front - he asks him to be "joli", and I don't have the time right now to look up the entire short text, but I remember being surprised because the German phrase Heinrich uses to express the same thing didn't seem to fit "joli" as used today.
Re: quotes, yes, poor kid Fritz. It definitely sounds like SD (and Wilhelmine) feel the need to reassure FW.
re: AW, future lover of fireworks: writes Stratemann on October 30th 1728: Dienstags den 26. divertierte sich Nachmittags der Prinz August Wilhelm im Thiergarten mit Canonen-Schießen, maßen der junge Herr von Schießen und Soldaten ein großer Liebhaber ist.
In 1728, he'd be six years, so the same age as poor Fritz when SD feels the need to write those reassurances to FW. BTW, that's why I'm sceptical about that 19th century anecdote about toddler Fritz refusing to play with Wilhelmine's girly playthings and wanting to play with drums instead - it was so clearly what FW wanted from a son of his, and everyone knew it. (Btw, I do wonder at which age the children actually understood what soldiers do. I mean, when little AW is pushed to ask for mercy for a deserter, he has to ask what it exactly "hanging" means first, and given the anecdote Stratemann reports in November 1730 of his post Katte's death exchange with FW about not wanting to be a soldier anymore if Dad keeps beheading his officers, I think a case can be made that what attracted kid AW to playing with canons was just the excitement and the noise, without understanding what they were for.
re: joli, it's also what Heinrich uses in his half German, half French letter to little Ferdinand
Oh, right, I remember that now! Which would be another data point towards meaning something similar to "well-behaved".
It definitely sounds like SD (and Wilhelmine) feel the need to reassure FW.
Definitely agreed. Which makes it a bit harder to judge how Fritz himself really felt, as they'd both be very inclined to play up his enjoyment of playing soldier at that age, but the fact that they have to do it in the first place points towards at least the fear of cannons/gunfire. Inhowfar he liked/disliked the other aspects at that age is a bit less certain. But as you mention re:AW, it's also a question of imagination/understanding and what the kids think they are doing, plus a possible desire to please/be like dad. SD once writes (in 1715) that Fritz said he wanted to join FW and help him kill the King of Sweden with a big cannon.
In 1728, he'd be six years, so the same age as poor Fritz when SD feels the need to write those reassurances
Two years older actually, given that the reassurances re: Fritz start in 1716 (at least).
Oh, right, I remember that now! Which would be another data point towards meaning something similar to "well-behaved".
*nods* I'll probably find the chance to look up the exact wording again tomorrow. Anyway, teenage Heinrich is bound to use it in the same sense SD did years earlier.
One thing, though, re: SD's reassurances - I'm reminded she also wrote a letter from Hannover during a visit insisting that tiny future Fritz of Wales asks about his "bride" at a point when Wilhelmine is all of six months, sooooo, not necessarily the most accurate reporter on childish utterings. Though I think it's far more likely that any son of FW, growing up near him and drinking the cool aid of "being a soldier is the best job of the universe, and Dad loves soldiers more than anything*", really plays eagerly with mini canons and other soldier stuff than that little Fritz not yet of Wales wants to know all about the baby his weird aunt insists he'll marry one day!
*The letter from Wilhelmine to FW which Oster quotes where she says her governess Leti says she, W, would make a good soldier if women could be one, and she wants to be one so Dad writers her back is also very telling in that regard.
No, it was in the Heinrich-as-commander dissertation, that is, in a footnote of same, but I transcribed it at the time for you in a comment. I also transcribed it for me in a notebook, with which I'll be reunited tomorrow.
Found it! :) (And Heinrich spells it "jolli" which is why it was harder to find.) Copying for easy access:
Pro Fuer Ecrit moi, du solst mir schreiben Ce que tu fais, was du machst Ce que tu dis, was du sachst et tu doit etre jolli dans ta lettre, und du solst erlich sein in deinem brief, allor, je t'aimerai, So werde ich dich lieb haben Henri Heinrich
Interestingly, he equates "joli" with "ehrlich" here, which I didn't expect! Hm.
Thank you! And right, that's why I thought "but that's not what joli means, Heinrich!" back in the day. Hm, several possibilities I see:
a) Heinrich changes his mind about what he wants Ferdinand to be like in the letter mid-sentence
b) Speaking better French than German like the rest of his siblings, he uses the wrong German word
c) This is actually how this particular family used the term "joli" in their Brandenburg-French when talking to or about a child.
If the last, I'm also considering that for FW, his son(s) being "ehrlich" was tremendously important, and not just in the sense of "not lying" but in the old fashioned "having honor" (i.e. "Ehre") sense of the world. However, FW famously used the expression "honnete homme" - in French - when making his prediction of AW's future greatness, and "honnete" as a translation makes more sense of that meaning, too. Therefore, I also see the possibility of
d) Heinrich is linguistically reflecting parental advice he himself heard from SD and FW precisely, who told him to be joli and ehrlich, respectively, so he uses both towards Ferdinand!
I think a narrow meaning of "ehrlich" for joli seems very unlikely, not least given the way SD uses it: a letter that toddler Wilhelmine writes is joli, she says that two-year-old Fritz wants to learn to exercise so FW will find him joli, a little chariot is joli and little baby Friederike is getting more jolie every day, which are two of those instances where it seems to be used in today's sense of "hübsch" - but then you also get a sentence like Wilhelmine a été fort jolie et a demande pardon a son frere (after she was punished for scratching him) a couple weeks later, which is once again a description of behaviour. Or this one: Wilhelmine se prepare pour vous montrer a votre retour ce qu'elle sait de I'histoire, et Fritz dit qu'il vous aime et qu'il veut toujours etre joli pour vous plaire. So it seems to be a rather broad descriptor of desirable and "pretty" traits, and maybe Heinrich used the German word that seemed closest to what he specifically meant in his particular case? And one thing I had to think of: the philosophical tradition of "schön" = "gut", which could play into a broader meaning of joli as a descriptor?
I think a case can be made that what attracted kid AW to playing with canons was just the excitement and the noise, without understanding what they were for.
Oh, absolutely. At least if this love of cannon is present around age 3, that must be how it starts! (Fritzian comments about wanting to kill the Swedish king notwithstanding; he's clearly echoing what he's hearing, and that's if SD is telling the strict truth.)
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Fritz and fear of gunfire
Date: 2021-06-06 03:26 pm (UTC)Right!? :((
I bet AW, future lover of fireworks, got off on the right foot with Dad by liking loud noises and explosions at the age of 2-3.
Yup! Fritz and Wilhelmine on the other hand got a little grotto with a basin full of fish in July 1715 and they both liked it so much that they didn't want to go to bed: Fritz and Wilhelmine went outside to entertain themselves yesterday; in the middle of the table there was a grotto with jets of water and a basin, where there were small, alive fish which swam; they found it so beautiful that they did not want to get up and go to bed. <333
Also, re: the Dictionary quote, very interesting! She uses it quite often (next to "sage" which I think means "well-behaved" here) and I got the impression that it has a more active connotation then just being regarded a certain way from the outside, be it pretty or cute.
Re: Fritz and fear of gunfire
Date: 2021-06-06 03:38 pm (UTC)AWWW! <333 is right.
Also, lol and argh, I typed "Acadamie Francaise" as a placeholder in the draft and meant to fix it after I got all my thoughts down, but forgot: Académie Française. (Confession time: I still have no German or French keyboard layout set up on my laptop, so diacritics have to be specially copy-pasted. At least I managed to get a German keyboard on my phone, which makes things a little easier. Especially autosuggest, which is super helpful when I sort of know the word I want but can't quite spell it. :P)
Re: Fritz and fear of gunfire
Date: 2021-06-06 03:45 pm (UTC)Re: quotes, yes, poor kid Fritz. It definitely sounds like SD (and Wilhelmine) feel the need to reassure FW.
re: AW, future lover of fireworks: writes Stratemann on October 30th 1728: Dienstags den 26. divertierte sich Nachmittags der Prinz August Wilhelm im Thiergarten mit Canonen-Schießen, maßen der junge Herr von Schießen und Soldaten ein großer Liebhaber ist.
In 1728, he'd be six years, so the same age as poor Fritz when SD feels the need to write those reassurances to FW. BTW, that's why I'm sceptical about that 19th century anecdote about toddler Fritz refusing to play with Wilhelmine's girly playthings and wanting to play with drums instead - it was so clearly what FW wanted from a son of his, and everyone knew it. (Btw, I do wonder at which age the children actually understood what soldiers do. I mean, when little AW is pushed to ask for mercy for a deserter, he has to ask what it exactly "hanging" means first, and given the anecdote Stratemann reports in November 1730 of his post Katte's death exchange with FW about not wanting to be a soldier anymore if Dad keeps beheading his officers, I think a case can be made that what attracted kid AW to playing with canons was just the excitement and the noise, without understanding what they were for.
Re: Fritz and fear of gunfire
Date: 2021-06-06 04:30 pm (UTC)Oh, right, I remember that now! Which would be another data point towards meaning something similar to "well-behaved".
It definitely sounds like SD (and Wilhelmine) feel the need to reassure FW.
Definitely agreed. Which makes it a bit harder to judge how Fritz himself really felt, as they'd both be very inclined to play up his enjoyment of playing soldier at that age, but the fact that they have to do it in the first place points towards at least the fear of cannons/gunfire. Inhowfar he liked/disliked the other aspects at that age is a bit less certain. But as you mention re:AW, it's also a question of imagination/understanding and what the kids think they are doing, plus a possible desire to please/be like dad. SD once writes (in 1715) that Fritz said he wanted to join FW and help him kill the King of Sweden with a big cannon.
In 1728, he'd be six years, so the same age as poor Fritz when SD feels the need to write those reassurances
Two years older actually, given that the reassurances re: Fritz start in 1716 (at least).
Re: Fritz and fear of gunfire
Date: 2021-06-06 04:43 pm (UTC)*nods* I'll probably find the chance to look up the exact wording again tomorrow. Anyway, teenage Heinrich is bound to use it in the same sense SD did years earlier.
One thing, though, re: SD's reassurances - I'm reminded she also wrote a letter from Hannover during a visit insisting that tiny future Fritz of Wales asks about his "bride" at a point when Wilhelmine is all of six months, sooooo, not necessarily the most accurate reporter on childish utterings. Though I think it's far more likely that any son of FW, growing up near him and drinking the cool aid of "being a soldier is the best job of the universe, and Dad loves soldiers more than anything*", really plays eagerly with mini canons and other soldier stuff than that little Fritz not yet of Wales wants to know all about the baby his weird aunt insists he'll marry one day!
*The letter from Wilhelmine to FW which Oster quotes where she says her governess Leti says she, W, would make a good soldier if women could be one, and she wants to be one so Dad writers her back is also very telling in that regard.
Re: Fritz and fear of gunfire
Date: 2021-06-06 05:11 pm (UTC)Is it in something I have access to? I searched the Heinrich and AW bios for "joli", and got no hits.
little Fritz not yet of Wales wants to know all about the baby his weird aunt insists he'll marry one day!
I laughed. :)
Re: Fritz and fear of gunfire
Date: 2021-06-06 05:13 pm (UTC)Re: Fritz and fear of gunfire
Date: 2021-06-06 06:17 pm (UTC)Pro Fuer
Ecrit moi, du solst mir schreiben
Ce que tu fais, was du machst
Ce que tu dis, was du sachst
et tu doit etre jolli dans ta lettre,
und du solst erlich sein in deinem
brief, allor, je t'aimerai, So werde
ich dich lieb haben
Henri
Heinrich
Interestingly, he equates "joli" with "ehrlich" here, which I didn't expect! Hm.
Re: Fritz and fear of gunfire
Date: 2021-06-07 04:43 am (UTC)a) Heinrich changes his mind about what he wants Ferdinand to be like in the letter mid-sentence
b) Speaking better French than German like the rest of his siblings, he uses the wrong German word
c) This is actually how this particular family used the term "joli" in their Brandenburg-French when talking to or about a child.
If the last, I'm also considering that for FW, his son(s) being "ehrlich" was tremendously important, and not just in the sense of "not lying" but in the old fashioned "having honor" (i.e. "Ehre") sense of the world. However, FW famously used the expression "honnete homme" - in French - when making his prediction of AW's future greatness, and "honnete" as a translation makes more sense of that meaning, too. Therefore, I also see the possibility of
d) Heinrich is linguistically reflecting parental advice he himself heard from SD and FW precisely, who told him to be joli and ehrlich, respectively, so he uses both towards Ferdinand!
Re: Fritz and fear of gunfire
Date: 2021-06-07 10:45 am (UTC)So it seems to be a rather broad descriptor of desirable and "pretty" traits, and maybe Heinrich used the German word that seemed closest to what he specifically meant in his particular case? And one thing I had to think of: the philosophical tradition of "schön" = "gut", which could play into a broader meaning of joli as a descriptor?
Re: Fritz and fear of gunfire
Date: 2021-06-06 05:10 pm (UTC)Oh, absolutely. At least if this love of cannon is present around age 3, that must be how it starts! (Fritzian comments about wanting to kill the Swedish king notwithstanding; he's clearly echoing what he's hearing, and that's if SD is telling the strict truth.)
Re: Fritz and fear of gunfire
Date: 2021-06-06 05:11 pm (UTC)Re: Fritz and fear of gunfire
Date: 2021-06-06 05:12 pm (UTC)