Considering pages otherwise made a smooth transition into the army from FW's day onwards once they had aged out of their page days, for which no departure money would have been necessary, it can't have been a standard transition, either.
is really interesting!
So what we have is:
- Lehndorff's account of the fraternal showdown, stating that Marwitz was a page at the time. - The letters from Fritz dating that episode to early 1746. - Henckel's memoirs saying that quartermaster Marwitz started out as a page and was sometimes in favor with Fritz and sometimes not. - The obelisk saying that quartermaster Marwitz was in his 36th year when he died in 1759. - Evidence of a page named Marwitz receiving severance pay in 1746.
So that's either tentative evidence that we have a page who was 21/22 in 1746, or, as you pointed out, the multiple Keith pages might be paralleled by multiple Marwitz pages. Quartermaster Marwitz could still be the 1742 Marwitz page, replaced by a younger brother/cousin who was *also* in and out of favor (maybe sexy charisma runs in the family :P). You did comment on the fact that Henckel doesn't seem to know anything about a relationship between Heinrich and Marwitz, and you concluded, "Which probably says something about the different types of relationships Heinrich has with Lehndorff and Henckel respectively."
But maybe we have two separate pages here, and the quartermaster *isn't* the one Fritz accused of having gonorrhea.
Incidentally, remember when we discussed whether the quartermaster who refused to set up camp at Hochkirch was obelisk quartermaster Marwitz? I've found at least one account (not contemporary) that says it was, namely the memoirs of Friedrich August Ludwig von der Marwitz, born 1777. Younger Marwitz says he has the story from his great uncle, Lt. General Béville, and that Black Marwitz = Quartermaster Marwitz = Hochkirch Marwitz.
Younger Marwitz doesn't have the quartermaster getting locked up or otherwise punished for his disobedience, though. Ah, yes, it's Catt who has Marwitz getting arrested. (I did remember Catt talking to a Marwitz about how he'd refused to do what Fritz told him at Hochkirch, but I'd forgotten the details.)
Okay, found my way back to the German Wikipedia article on Georg Wilhelm, which claims that Georg Wilhelm = Black Marwitz = page in 1746 = Quartermaster at Hochkirch = Obelisk Quartermaster. If not for the age of the page in 1746, I wouldn't even be questioning it!
Wikipedia says Marwitz the memoir-writer is whitewashing his relative's fate by not having him arrested, but how much you want to bet Wikipedia just blindly trusts Catt? Anyway, Henckel and Catt have Marwitz as a captain in 1758; memoir-writer Marwitz has him as a major, but he could have been a major when he died in 1759, since that's the next rank up. That would mean he got a promotion between October 1758, day of being right when Fritz was wrong, and 1759, year of dying.
Wikipedia cites Droysen as the source for Georg Wilhelm being the name of dying-in-1759 Marwitz.
OH. Look at this. That index points me to page 385 of this volume of the Political Correspondence, where Fritz is writing to Heinrich that "Marwitz vient de mourir à Landshut d'une fièvre chaude mêlée de rougeole." So obelisk Marwitz didn't die in a battle. I mean, dying of fever mixed with measles in camp was far more common than dying in battle!
Okay, so 1742 page Marwitz is Georg Wilhelm, according to the archives. Dying-in-1759 Marwitz is known to Fritz and Heinrich as just "Marwitz", no qualification needed (and given the size of that family, that's something!).
Maaaybe 1746 severance pay-receiving page Marwitz = 1742 page Georg Wilhelm Marwitz. Which would mean we have a 22-year old page in 1746, but okay. Peter Keith was 19 and got a surprise promotion less than 4 months before his 20th birthday because of his plans to run away with Fritz. He might well have turned 20 in office.
I'm tentatively going with Antony's first names being Georg Wilhelm. :)
Given female Marwitz the mistress of Wilhelmine's husband, that's a given. :)
But yes, point taken about it still being possible there were two pages Marwitz. BTW, the Georg Wilhelm wiki entry wasn't there two years ago! I know because I looked up every Marwitz when searching for a first name, until capitulating and coming up with the Antony nickname.
Dying-in-1759 Marwitz is known to Fritz and Heinrich as just "Marwitz", no qualification needed (and given the size of that family, that's something!).
Indeed - don't forget, also serving in the 7 Years War is the Marwitz who according to legend will refuse the dishonorable order to sack Hubertusburg! So if Fritz assumes Heinrich will know immediately which Marwitz he means, there has to be a personal relevance to both of them there which does argue in favour of dying-in-1759 Quartermaster Marwitz being identical with Marwiz of the 1746 letters.
Wikipedia says Marwitz the memoir-writer is whitewashing his relative's fate by not having him arrested, but how much you want to bet Wikipedia just blindly trusts Catt?
There's undeniably that. BTW, I have another theory for the age problem: the war. I mean, if 16 years old Heinrich is considered ready to fight in the second Silesian War, and has a page with him (who gets shot in the head, poor guy), what do you want to bet Fritz brought his pages with him as well? Because of the war, the normal transition (and replacement of older/too old pages by younger pages) doesn't happen because everyone is fighting in the army anyway, and given Fritz' life style, I wouldn't be surprised if one of his pages died as well in that war. Which is why Marwitz in February and March 1746 at age 22 is still a page, what with the war having ended officially not until the end of December 1745.
BTW, the Georg Wilhelm wiki entry wasn't there two years ago! I know because I looked up every Marwitz when searching for a first name, until capitulating and coming up with the Antony nickname.
Omg, you're right! I said "found my way back to" because I assumed that I had come across it 2 years ago, when I also looked at every Marwitz, but back then we didn't know who to believe. Remember, we ragged on Ziebura equating obelisk quartermaster with 1746 love triangle interest for a while, before finding Henckel. So I assumed I had read this page and just not known whether to believe in the identification. (2 years ago, I would not have been able to follow the footnote to the Marwitz memoirs and read the 2 pages of unholy font to add to our evidence). But you're right! The page was only created on March 30, 2021.
Well, I wish the evidence were a little stronger, but if we're willing to lean on the evidence a little and connect some of the dots ourselves, I think we can mostly conclude the new Wikipedia article is correct and our Marwitz is Georg Wilhelm.
Which means it's time for an update to the male Marwitz affair, with at least his name, the references to him in the pages book, and the fact that he died in July 1759 of fever+measles, with a link to the Fritz letter.
I have many favorite parts of salon. One is getting to know the minor players, like Formey and Des Champs. Another is that that feeling that sticking around means getting one question after another answered and mystery after mystery solved!
BTW, I have another theory for the age problem: the war.
Ooh, good point. I hadn't made the connection, but maybe the war just made it easier to keep this guy around as page for another year or two.
what with the war having ended officially not until the end of December 1745.
And the return of Biche. :)
ETA: That reminds me, I had a question about this. In Rheinsberg, you wrote that Marwitz was 36 when he died. Now, what Fontane actually says is "Er starb 1759 im sechsunddreißigsten Jahre seines Alters." I've been wondering if that definitely means he was 36, or if he might be 35. It can go either way in English, and the more old-fashioned the author, the more likely the number is to work like centuries: the 18th century ends in 1800, and your 36th year ends when you turn 36. (Because pedantically, that's how it should work: the first year of your life ends when you turn 1, your second when you turn 2, and so on and so forth.)
Because if Marwitz was actually 35 in July 1759, he could have been born as late as June 1724. Which means in April 1746, he could have been about to turn 22. Which makes it far more likely that the 21-year old was a page, if Peter was on track to turn 20 as a page. But even if he was 22 or even 23 in 1746, you're right, the war might account for at slightly older page.
I'm curious if the pages book tells us anything about the age range of a royal page. :) I've been assuming 23 is surprisingly old based on other things I know, but I don't actually know.
n Rheinsberg, you wrote that Marwitz was 36 when he died. Now, what Fontane actually says is "Er starb 1759 im sechsunddreißigsten Jahre seines Alters.
Your 36th year ends when you turn 36 in German, too. However, I had a look at the original French inscription from which Fontane translated into German. And what the inscription says is: "étant mort a 36 ans, en 1759". This to me in French sounds unambigiously like Marwitz the quartermaster was 36 in 1759, no? (My photo of the inscription.) I mean, I would actually prefer it if he was 35! But the French really does says 36, and maybe Fontane was just trying to make the German translation sound extra old fashioned and phrased it unintentionally ambigiously.
The alternative is that Heinrich misremembered his ex boyfriend's age when writing the inscriptions as an old man. Also possible! Anyway, I've edited the new info into the post.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
timeasmymeasure
Inconclusive Marwitz detective work
Date: 2021-06-05 03:54 pm (UTC)Considering pages otherwise made a smooth transition into the army from FW's day onwards once they had aged out of their page days, for which no departure money would have been necessary, it can't have been a standard transition, either.
is really interesting!
So what we have is:
- Lehndorff's account of the fraternal showdown, stating that Marwitz was a page at the time.
- The letters from Fritz dating that episode to early 1746.
- Henckel's memoirs saying that quartermaster Marwitz started out as a page and was sometimes in favor with Fritz and sometimes not.
- The obelisk saying that quartermaster Marwitz was in his 36th year when he died in 1759.
- Evidence of a page named Marwitz receiving severance pay in 1746.
So that's either tentative evidence that we have a page who was 21/22 in 1746, or, as you pointed out, the multiple Keith pages might be paralleled by multiple Marwitz pages. Quartermaster Marwitz could still be the 1742 Marwitz page, replaced by a younger brother/cousin who was *also* in and out of favor (maybe sexy charisma runs in the family :P). You did comment on the fact that Henckel doesn't seem to know anything about a relationship between Heinrich and Marwitz, and you concluded, "Which probably says something about the different types of relationships Heinrich has with Lehndorff and Henckel respectively."
But maybe we have two separate pages here, and the quartermaster *isn't* the one Fritz accused of having gonorrhea.
Incidentally, remember when we discussed whether the quartermaster who refused to set up camp at Hochkirch was obelisk quartermaster Marwitz? I've found at least one account (not contemporary) that says it was, namely the memoirs of Friedrich August Ludwig von der Marwitz, born 1777. Younger Marwitz says he has the story from his great uncle, Lt. General Béville, and that Black Marwitz = Quartermaster Marwitz = Hochkirch Marwitz.
Younger Marwitz doesn't have the quartermaster getting locked up or otherwise punished for his disobedience, though. Ah, yes, it's Catt who has Marwitz getting arrested. (I did remember Catt talking to a Marwitz about how he'd refused to do what Fritz told him at Hochkirch, but I'd forgotten the details.)
Okay, found my way back to the German Wikipedia article on Georg Wilhelm, which claims that Georg Wilhelm = Black Marwitz = page in 1746 = Quartermaster at Hochkirch = Obelisk Quartermaster. If not for the age of the page in 1746, I wouldn't even be questioning it!
Wikipedia says Marwitz the memoir-writer is whitewashing his relative's fate by not having him arrested, but how much you want to bet Wikipedia just blindly trusts Catt? Anyway, Henckel and Catt have Marwitz as a captain in 1758; memoir-writer Marwitz has him as a major, but he could have been a major when he died in 1759, since that's the next rank up. That would mean he got a promotion between October 1758, day of being right when Fritz was wrong, and 1759, year of dying.
Wikipedia cites Droysen as the source for Georg Wilhelm being the name of dying-in-1759 Marwitz.
OH. Look at this. That index points me to page 385 of this volume of the Political Correspondence, where Fritz is writing to Heinrich that "Marwitz vient de mourir à Landshut d'une fièvre chaude mêlée de rougeole." So obelisk Marwitz didn't die in a battle. I mean, dying of fever mixed with measles in camp was far more common than dying in battle!
Okay, so 1742 page Marwitz is Georg Wilhelm, according to the archives. Dying-in-1759 Marwitz is known to Fritz and Heinrich as just "Marwitz", no qualification needed (and given the size of that family, that's something!).
Maaaybe 1746 severance pay-receiving page Marwitz = 1742 page Georg Wilhelm Marwitz. Which would mean we have a 22-year old page in 1746, but okay. Peter Keith was 19 and got a surprise promotion less than 4 months before his 20th birthday because of his plans to run away with Fritz. He might well have turned 20 in office.
I'm tentatively going with Antony's first names being Georg Wilhelm. :)
Re: Inconclusive Marwitz detective work
Date: 2021-06-05 04:38 pm (UTC)Given female Marwitz the mistress of Wilhelmine's husband, that's a given. :)
But yes, point taken about it still being possible there were two pages Marwitz. BTW, the Georg Wilhelm wiki entry wasn't there two years ago! I know because I looked up every Marwitz when searching for a first name, until capitulating and coming up with the Antony nickname.
Dying-in-1759 Marwitz is known to Fritz and Heinrich as just "Marwitz", no qualification needed (and given the size of that family, that's something!).
Indeed - don't forget, also serving in the 7 Years War is the Marwitz who according to legend will refuse the dishonorable order to sack Hubertusburg! So if Fritz assumes Heinrich will know immediately which Marwitz he means, there has to be a personal relevance to both of them there which does argue in favour of dying-in-1759 Quartermaster Marwitz being identical with Marwiz of the 1746 letters.
Wikipedia says Marwitz the memoir-writer is whitewashing his relative's fate by not having him arrested, but how much you want to bet Wikipedia just blindly trusts Catt?
There's undeniably that. BTW, I have another theory for the age problem: the war. I mean, if 16 years old Heinrich is considered ready to fight in the second Silesian War, and has a page with him (who gets shot in the head, poor guy), what do you want to bet Fritz brought his pages with him as well? Because of the war, the normal transition (and replacement of older/too old pages by younger pages) doesn't happen because everyone is fighting in the army anyway, and given Fritz' life style, I wouldn't be surprised if one of his pages died as well in that war. Which is why Marwitz in February and March 1746 at age 22 is still a page, what with the war having ended officially not until the end of December 1745.
Re: Inconclusive Marwitz detective work
Date: 2021-06-05 06:23 pm (UTC)Omg, you're right! I said "found my way back to" because I assumed that I had come across it 2 years ago, when I also looked at every Marwitz, but back then we didn't know who to believe. Remember, we ragged on Ziebura equating obelisk quartermaster with 1746 love triangle interest for a while, before finding Henckel. So I assumed I had read this page and just not known whether to believe in the identification. (2 years ago, I would not have been able to follow the footnote to the Marwitz memoirs and read the 2 pages of unholy font to add to our evidence). But you're right! The page was only created on March 30, 2021.
Well, I wish the evidence were a little stronger, but if we're willing to lean on the evidence a little and connect some of the dots ourselves, I think we can mostly conclude the new Wikipedia article is correct and our Marwitz is Georg Wilhelm.
Which means it's time for an update to the male Marwitz affair, with at least his name, the references to him in the pages book, and the fact that he died in July 1759 of fever+measles, with a link to the Fritz letter.
I have many favorite parts of salon. One is getting to know the minor players, like Formey and Des Champs. Another is that that feeling that sticking around means getting one question after another answered and mystery after mystery solved!
BTW, I have another theory for the age problem: the war.
Ooh, good point. I hadn't made the connection, but maybe the war just made it easier to keep this guy around as page for another year or two.
what with the war having ended officially not until the end of December 1745.
And the return of Biche. :)
ETA: That reminds me, I had a question about this. In Rheinsberg, you wrote that Marwitz was 36 when he died. Now, what Fontane actually says is "Er starb 1759 im sechsunddreißigsten Jahre seines Alters." I've been wondering if that definitely means he was 36, or if he might be 35. It can go either way in English, and the more old-fashioned the author, the more likely the number is to work like centuries: the 18th century ends in 1800, and your 36th year ends when you turn 36. (Because pedantically, that's how it should work: the first year of your life ends when you turn 1, your second when you turn 2, and so on and so forth.)
Because if Marwitz was actually 35 in July 1759, he could have been born as late as June 1724. Which means in April 1746, he could have been about to turn 22. Which makes it far more likely that the 21-year old was a page, if Peter was on track to turn 20 as a page. But even if he was 22 or even 23 in 1746, you're right, the war might account for at slightly older page.
I'm curious if the pages book tells us anything about the age range of a royal page. :) I've been assuming 23 is surprisingly old based on other things I know, but I don't actually know.
Re: Inconclusive Marwitz detective work
Date: 2021-06-06 08:14 am (UTC)Your 36th year ends when you turn 36 in German, too. However, I had a look at the original French inscription from which Fontane translated into German. And what the inscription says is: "étant mort a 36 ans, en 1759". This to me in French sounds unambigiously like Marwitz the quartermaster was 36 in 1759, no? (My photo of the inscription.) I mean, I would actually prefer it if he was 35! But the French really does says 36, and maybe Fontane was just trying to make the German translation sound extra old fashioned and phrased it unintentionally ambigiously.
I'll update the entry.
Re: Inconclusive Marwitz detective work
Date: 2021-06-06 01:29 pm (UTC)maybe Fontane was just trying to make the German translation sound extra old fashioned and phrased it unintentionally ambigiously.
Yeah, makes sense. I guess we have a 22-23-yo page in 1746, then. I like your war explanation!
Re: Inconclusive Marwitz detective work
Date: 2021-06-06 04:57 pm (UTC)Re: Inconclusive Marwitz detective work
Date: 2021-06-06 05:37 pm (UTC)Rheinsberg: Thanks! I love all the careful source criticism.