Speaking of the moppet, my sources differ on who initiated the mutual sending back.
The movie has Bourbon starting with the sending back. Horowski does, too, I think (in the chapter "Die junge Dame reist ab"). I mean, it's clear in both that Philip and Isabella were thrilled to have the opportunity to send her back (and very very insulted that their own daughter is sent back), but the French start it. Horowski even mentions that Madame de Ventadour's letter to Isabella about it, as she went from being Louis' governess to being the Moppet's governess (which Louis in the movie does resent - he knows he's getting too old for a governess, but he loves her, has grown up without siblings and clearly hates the idea that now she's going to spend all her time with the moppet, which is why he's the sole person in Versailles other than Bourbon who does not adore the little Infanta. Anyway, Madame de Ventadour adored her in rl too, and when having to send her back wrote to Isabella a "woe, woe, I hate this, so sorry, but she'll always be MY Queen" letter from which Horowski quotes. (He even adds that she kept her word and kept writing to the moppet for the rest of her - Madame de Ventadour's - life, but also that soon, her letters weren't opened anymore, and that they were found 90% unopened just a few decades ago. Anyway, all of this sounds as if the French did start it.
Fritz gets captured plotting: I know his instructions in the case of his captivity did include to ignore anything he says after being captured - as you say, that points to the fact he's aware that during his last time in prison, he did give in and still hates the idea but knows he's capable -, but do they also say he's abdicating if that happens and his nephew is King immediately? Because it's a difference for Heinrich whether he's Regent for absent-but-could-come-back Fritz or Regent for future FW2!
He even adds that she kept her word and kept writing to the moppet for the rest of her - Madame de Ventadour's - life, but also that soon, her letters weren't opened anymore, and that they were found 90% unopened just a few decades ago.
Yeah, I remember that, and I think of it sometimes, because it's so poignant. I remember Horowski saying the letters were super uninteresting, too. :/
but do they also say he's abdicating if that happens and his nephew is King immediately?
I will have to check; he left instructions multiple times, and I'll have to look for the most recent one, and also make sure to exclude the "if I'm killed" instructions. But my *impression* is that Fritz was careful not to abdicate, that it was, "Do nothing dishonorable to get me back, and don't obey anything I say when I'm in the enemy power, and make sure everyone obeys my successor and the war continues," but the very strong implication is that if Fritz comes back, he's still very much king, that this is a temporary interlude in which you're authorized to disobey him. ;) But I'm going from memory and will have to do my detective work, refind the original sources, and read them closely.
By the way, I have twice escaped the designs of the Austrian hussars [viz, to capture him]. If I suffer the misfortune of being taken alive, I absolutely order you, and you will answer for it with your head, that in my absence you will not respect my orders, that you will serve as counselor to my brother, and that the state will not take any unworthy action to gain my freedom. On the contrary, I wish and I order that, in this event, the state act even more vigorously than ever.
1757:
If I have the fate of being taken prisoner by the enemy, I forbid anyone to have the slightest regard for me, or to make the slightest reflection on what I might write about my detention. If such a misfortune should happen to me, I want to sacrifice myself for the State, and we must obey my brother, who, as well as all my ministers and generals, will answer to me with their heads that neither province nor ransom will be offered for me, and that the war will continue, pushing its advantages as if I had never existed in the world.
Nope, no abdication. I feel like there's another one that's a year or two later than 1757, but I doubt it's any different in detail.
Well, one key difference would be that in 1757, AW was still alive, so the "brother" referred to must be him, not Heinrich, even if he was in disgrace and casheered, because there would have been no getting around the fact that he was the next in line for the throne and unlike his son an adult. Now there's a thought I hadn't had before: Fritz gets captured at Leuthen instead of achieving his most glorious victory. AW is just about to go to Berlin from Leipzig where he hung out with a recovering Heinrich. Unlike Heinrich, AW would have been capable of saying at this point "to hell with these instructions, I think the war's lost anyway. MT, you can have Silesia, and also, we surrender if that means the war is over instantly. I don't see what Fritz can do to me that he hasn't done already if you send him back." (Otoh, presumably Heinrich would talk him out of the surrender.) But really, the Fritz capture plot has to happen after the summer of 1758, i.e. with AW dead.
To get back to the abdication subject, figures that Fritz pointedly does not include this option in his instructions.(And for all his talk to Catt and others of how after the war, he'd have abdicated and handed government over to AW if AW hadn't died/intends to abdicate after the war and hand things over to young FW, there's just no way he'd have done it.)
so the "brother" referred to must be him, not Heinrich
Well, yes, what I meant by "Sorry, Heinrich" was a reference to you saying "it's a difference for Heinrich whether he's Regent for absent-but-could-come-back Fritz or Regent for future FW2!" Sorry, fictional Heinrich, you're regent for absent-but-could-come-back Fritz. Obviously the 1741 and 1757 heir is AW. By "not different in detail" I meant that if he wasn't abdicating in favor of adult brother in 1741-1757, I doubt he's abdicating in favor of minor nephew in ~1760.
there's just no way he'd have done it.
This is why I wrote his other self in "Grind" talking about stepping down after the war and not being able to do it. Fritz managed to give up command to Finck + Heinrich + FW2 after Kunersdorf for 3 days max, handing over command on the 13th of August at the earliest and taking it back on the 16th at the latest. (The battle was on the 12th.).
And incidentally, the exact words are:
Weilen mir eine schwere Krankheit zugestossen, so übergebe das Commando meiner Armee währender Krankheit bis an meine Besserung an den General Finck
and
Er muss meinem Bruder, den ich Generalissimus bei der Armee declariret, von allem berichten. Dieses Unglück ganz wieder herzustellen gehet nicht an; indessen was mein Bruder befehlen wird, das muss geschehen. An meinen Neveu muss die Armee schwören.
Dieses ist der einzige Rath, den ich bei denen unglücklichen Umständen im Stande zu geben bin; hätte ich noch Ressourcen, so wäre ich darbei geblieben.
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Philip V: The Later Years
Date: 2021-05-31 05:49 pm (UTC)The movie has Bourbon starting with the sending back. Horowski does, too, I think (in the chapter "Die junge Dame reist ab"). I mean, it's clear in both that Philip and Isabella were thrilled to have the opportunity to send her back (and very very insulted that their own daughter is sent back), but the French start it. Horowski even mentions that Madame de Ventadour's letter to Isabella about it, as she went from being Louis' governess to being the Moppet's governess (which Louis in the movie does resent - he knows he's getting too old for a governess, but he loves her, has grown up without siblings and clearly hates the idea that now she's going to spend all her time with the moppet, which is why he's the sole person in Versailles other than Bourbon who does not adore the little Infanta. Anyway, Madame de Ventadour adored her in rl too, and when having to send her back wrote to Isabella a "woe, woe, I hate this, so sorry, but she'll always be MY Queen" letter from which Horowski quotes. (He even adds that she kept her word and kept writing to the moppet for the rest of her - Madame de Ventadour's - life, but also that soon, her letters weren't opened anymore, and that they were found 90% unopened just a few decades ago. Anyway, all of this sounds as if the French did start it.
Fritz gets captured plotting: I know his instructions in the case of his captivity did include to ignore anything he says after being captured - as you say, that points to the fact he's aware that during his last time in prison, he did give in and still hates the idea but knows he's capable -, but do they also say he's abdicating if that happens and his nephew is King immediately? Because it's a difference for Heinrich whether he's Regent for absent-but-could-come-back Fritz or Regent for future FW2!
Re: Philip V: The Later Years
Date: 2021-05-31 06:20 pm (UTC)Yeah, I remember that, and I think of it sometimes, because it's so poignant. I remember Horowski saying the letters were super uninteresting, too. :/
but do they also say he's abdicating if that happens and his nephew is King immediately?
I will have to check; he left instructions multiple times, and I'll have to look for the most recent one, and also make sure to exclude the "if I'm killed" instructions. But my *impression* is that Fritz was careful not to abdicate, that it was, "Do nothing dishonorable to get me back, and don't obey anything I say when I'm in the enemy power, and make sure everyone obeys my successor and the war continues," but the very strong implication is that if Fritz comes back, he's still very much king, that this is a temporary interlude in which you're authorized to disobey him. ;) But I'm going from memory and will have to do my detective work, refind the original sources, and read them closely.
Instructions in the event of Fritz's capture
Date: 2021-05-31 06:54 pm (UTC)By the way, I have twice escaped the designs of the Austrian hussars [viz, to capture him]. If I suffer the misfortune of being taken alive, I absolutely order you, and you will answer for it with your head, that in my absence you will not respect my orders, that you will serve as counselor to my brother, and that the state will not take any unworthy action to gain my freedom. On the contrary, I wish and I order that, in this event, the state act even more vigorously than ever.
1757:
If I have the fate of being taken prisoner by the enemy, I forbid anyone to have the slightest regard for me, or to make the slightest reflection on what I might write about my detention. If such a misfortune should happen to me, I want to sacrifice myself for the State, and we must obey my brother, who, as well as all my ministers and generals, will answer to me with their heads that neither province nor ransom will be offered for me, and that the war will continue, pushing its advantages as if I had never existed in the world.
Nope, no abdication. I feel like there's another one that's a year or two later than 1757, but I doubt it's any different in detail.
Sorry, Heinrich. :P
Re: Instructions in the event of Fritz's capture
Date: 2021-06-01 06:05 am (UTC)To get back to the abdication subject, figures that Fritz pointedly does not include this option in his instructions.(And for all his talk to Catt and others of how after the war, he'd have abdicated and handed government over to AW if AW hadn't died/intends to abdicate after the war and hand things over to young FW, there's just no way he'd have done it.)
Re: Instructions in the event of Fritz's capture
Date: 2021-06-01 01:41 pm (UTC)Well, yes, what I meant by "Sorry, Heinrich" was a reference to you saying "it's a difference for Heinrich whether he's Regent for absent-but-could-come-back Fritz or Regent for future FW2!" Sorry, fictional Heinrich, you're regent for absent-but-could-come-back Fritz. Obviously the 1741 and 1757 heir is AW. By "not different in detail" I meant that if he wasn't abdicating in favor of adult brother in 1741-1757, I doubt he's abdicating in favor of minor nephew in ~1760.
there's just no way he'd have done it.
This is why I wrote his other self in "Grind" talking about stepping down after the war and not being able to do it. Fritz managed to give up command to Finck + Heinrich + FW2 after Kunersdorf for 3 days max, handing over command on the 13th of August at the earliest and taking it back on the 16th at the latest. (The battle was on the 12th.).
And incidentally, the exact words are:
Weilen mir eine schwere Krankheit zugestossen, so übergebe das Commando meiner Armee währender Krankheit bis an meine Besserung an den General Finck
and
Er muss meinem Bruder, den ich Generalissimus bei der Armee declariret, von allem berichten. Dieses Unglück ganz wieder herzustellen gehet nicht an; indessen was mein Bruder befehlen wird, das muss geschehen. An meinen Neveu muss die Armee schwören.
Dieses ist der einzige Rath, den ich bei denen unglücklichen Umständen im Stande zu geben bin; hätte ich noch Ressourcen, so wäre ich darbei geblieben.