England: We're thinking Henry VIII. for HRE, mostly because Henry thinks he rocks that much. Also the Pope has just appointed him Defender of the Faith. No more faithful Catholic than Henry, ever! All the titles for Henry!
HAHAHAHAHA omg, especially when paired with
Henry VIII: FINE. Don't blame for the consequences.
LOL FOREVER
New Emperor Charles: Not impressed. Seriously, he wasn't. This particular event is key to Luther's reputation - "here I stand, I can do no other" etc. - but Charles was just, like, meh. I expected more. Possibly one reason why he let Luther go instead of arresting him on the spot, something he would agonize over decades later. Another reason was that Charles was still young enough that having given his word about free passage for Luther meant something to him.
This is a hilariously engaging way of telling the story, but also this is fascinating (my knowledge of the story from Lutherans is, predictably, heavy on Luther and not at all on Charles). Also makes me feel for Charles. I have a huge trope-love for people who keep their word even when it kind of sucks for them.
and touchingly added "and I don't want another son, either" when he was a teenager.
Aww, that's touching! Seems like most people in that era would have wanted another son <3
Seems like generally speaking he treated his illegitimate kids pretty well too. (What happened to his daughter by Germaine de Fox?) Also I got a kick out of his unorthodox love life :D (Also I really like Barbara Blomberg!)
Philip: You're my most feared general and the Dutch are afraid of you - and you can't convince a single woman to retire into a nunnery?
HAHAHAHAHHA okay I burst out laughing here would totally be up for Duke of Alva fic where he gets outmanuevered by Barbara
Also, aww Philip and Barbara :D <3
Juan: I'm telling you yes, because I'm not suicidal and you are famous for your uncertain temper in real life. And then I immediately go and tell half brother Philip. Because guess what? I've sworn my oath to him, he was the one to welcome me into the family, and unlike fictional Rodrigo de Posa, I just like Philip better than you. Sorry. Adios, Carlos.
...ALSO would read this. HA.
(Also I have seen one staging of Verdi which looked not so different from this in the auto-da-fe scene, although mostly I think due to really poor direction plus a lackluster Carlos coupled with Rene Pape as a compelling Philip that did come across as much cooler than Carlos; that would be interesting as an intentional directorial construction, though)
Schiller: They weren't related by blood and only met when he was an impressionable late teen. He grew up with his sister. I'm sure you see the difference.
This is a hilariously engaging way of telling the story, but also this is fascinating (my knowledge of the story from Lutherans is, predictably, heavy on Luther and not at all on Charles)
The 2018 biographer of Charles, Heinz Schilling, is, as no review at the time forgot to point, the first Charles biographer who write a biography of Luther first, in fact to this day the only Luther biographer who also wrote a biography of Charles. Which is why he's really good at all the religious issues. (That he's way better informed on Luther than on, say, Francis I., otoh, is also evident. I mean, think of Francis what you will, but culturally disinterested, he was not. (And not just because he offered Leonardo da Vinci a nice retirement in Amboise.) ) Back to Luther - something I hadn't known: after Charles had won his greatest victory over the Protestant princes (at Mühlbach), he didn't just visit Wittenberg, he visited Luther's tomb. What he did not do was to order Luther's corpse to be exhumed and his bones shattered etc., which is what his daughter-in-law Mary Tudor did with one of the dead big Calvinist thinkers who had ended up in England under Edward IV., and which certainly some of Charles' more hardcore advisors urged him to do.
This respect for the dead should not be confused with tolerance in the modern sense. Charles went to his death tormented by the idea that under his rule, Christianity had been split into factions and as he saw it heresy had spread throughout the Empire. He wasn't cynical about his faith, he really was a committed Catholic, and so he believed that an increasing number of his subjects were condemming themselves to hell, and he hadn't done enough to stop this and might have been able to if only he'd broken his word back in the day and had locked the ex-monk up. And certainly Philip II's hardcore Catholic fundamentalism was driven by the idea he had to make up for Dad not having done enough to contain heresy. But defiling the dead still was the kind of thing that seemed pointless to Charles, and so he didn't do it. What he thought when standing at Luther's tomb in Wittenberg, who knows.
Aww, that's touching! Seems like most people in that era would have wanted another son <3
Quite. Mind you, being Charles' only son for the longest time (and his only legitimate son ever) put a great weight on Philip from early childhood onwards. If you want iron woobie material: Philip's mother Isabella died after a stillbirth when he was 13. It was summer. As per ceremony, the coffin had to be reopened so Philip could identify the body when leading her funeral (Charles not being there, which made Philip head of the family in absentia). Decomposition had already set in, and he fainted. He also never forgot it. (But when waking up again, still went through with the ceremony.)
hat happened to his daughter by Germaine de Fox?
She died as a child.
would totally be up for Duke of Alva fic where he gets outmanuevered by Barbara
Yuletide, maybe? The nineteenth century Allgemeine Deutsche Biography which is online and which otherwise as a very 19th century Protestant German work deeply disapproves of the Duke of Alva, scourge of brave Protestant Dutch freedom fighters, nonetheless takes his side there and calls Barbara a shameless hussy. Thankfully, in this case German wiki uses a more modern source (though the old article is linked) and calls her a "selbstbestimmte Frau" instead.
The Spanish tv series about Charles also does a Don Carlos nay, Juan de Austria yay thing, both of them as children, though, as they each meet Charles after his abdication in his retirement. Btw, the tv series is correct and Verdi is wrong about Charles NOT wearing a monk's habit, but his usual clothing. He didn't join the order when he moved in, he just wanted to spend his remaining years (two, as it turned out) there, and brought a small household with him, as well as some books and a lot of watches. (He was a keen amateur clockmaker.)
The reason why the originally named Jeronimo was renamed into Juan, btw, was that Charles when writing the last version of his will (wherein he openly acknowledged him) wanted to name him after his mother Juana (who had wanted Charles himself to be named Juan, but Philip le Bel insisted on naming his oldest son after his grandfather Charles the Bold of Burgundy). Remember, Juana had died shortly before Charles abdicated (and you might even say he could only abdicate because Juana had died, because if he had abdicated while she was still alive and technically the still reigning Queen of Castile, the question of rulership would again be on the table). Was it guilt? Memory? You decide.
Juana's death scene from the same show (in the presence of her oldest daughter Eleanor)
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Re: Historical background notes for Verdi opera and Schiller play
Date: 2021-05-29 05:09 pm (UTC)England: We're thinking Henry VIII. for HRE, mostly because Henry thinks he rocks that much. Also the Pope has just appointed him Defender of the Faith. No more faithful Catholic than Henry, ever! All the titles for Henry!
HAHAHAHAHA omg, especially when paired with
Henry VIII: FINE. Don't blame for the consequences.
LOL FOREVER
New Emperor Charles: Not impressed. Seriously, he wasn't. This particular event is key to Luther's reputation - "here I stand, I can do no other" etc. - but Charles was just, like, meh. I expected more. Possibly one reason why he let Luther go instead of arresting him on the spot, something he would agonize over decades later. Another reason was that Charles was still young enough that having given his word about free passage for Luther meant something to him.
This is a hilariously engaging way of telling the story, but also this is fascinating (my knowledge of the story from Lutherans is, predictably, heavy on Luther and not at all on Charles). Also makes me feel for Charles. I have a huge trope-love for people who keep their word even when it kind of sucks for them.
and touchingly added "and I don't want another son, either" when he was a teenager.
Aww, that's touching! Seems like most people in that era would have wanted another son <3
Seems like generally speaking he treated his illegitimate kids pretty well too. (What happened to his daughter by Germaine de Fox?) Also I got a kick out of his unorthodox love life :D (Also I really like Barbara Blomberg!)
Philip: You're my most feared general and the Dutch are afraid of you - and you can't convince a single woman to retire into a nunnery?
HAHAHAHAHHA okay I burst out laughing here
would totally be up for Duke of Alva fic where he gets outmanuevered by Barbara
Also, aww Philip and Barbara :D <3
Juan: I'm telling you yes, because I'm not suicidal and you are famous for your uncertain temper in real life. And then I immediately go and tell half brother Philip. Because guess what? I've sworn my oath to him, he was the one to welcome me into the family, and unlike fictional Rodrigo de Posa, I just like Philip better than you. Sorry. Adios, Carlos.
...ALSO would read this. HA.
(Also I have seen one staging of Verdi which looked not so different from this in the auto-da-fe scene, although mostly I think due to really poor direction plus a lackluster Carlos coupled with Rene Pape as a compelling Philip that did come across as much cooler than Carlos; that would be interesting as an intentional directorial construction, though)
Schiller: They weren't related by blood and only met when he was an impressionable late teen. He grew up with his sister. I'm sure you see the difference.
*blinks*
:D
Re: Historical background notes for Verdi opera and Schiller play
Date: 2021-05-30 09:07 am (UTC)This is a hilariously engaging way of telling the story, but also this is fascinating (my knowledge of the story from Lutherans is, predictably, heavy on Luther and not at all on Charles)
The 2018 biographer of Charles, Heinz Schilling, is, as no review at the time forgot to point, the first Charles biographer who write a biography of Luther first, in fact to this day the only Luther biographer who also wrote a biography of Charles. Which is why he's really good at all the religious issues. (That he's way better informed on Luther than on, say, Francis I., otoh, is also evident. I mean, think of Francis what you will, but culturally disinterested, he was not. (And not just because he offered Leonardo da Vinci a nice retirement in Amboise.) ) Back to Luther - something I hadn't known: after Charles had won his greatest victory over the Protestant princes (at Mühlbach), he didn't just visit Wittenberg, he visited Luther's tomb. What he did not do was to order Luther's corpse to be exhumed and his bones shattered etc., which is what his daughter-in-law Mary Tudor did with one of the dead big Calvinist thinkers who had ended up in England under Edward IV., and which certainly some of Charles' more hardcore advisors urged him to do.
This respect for the dead should not be confused with tolerance in the modern sense. Charles went to his death tormented by the idea that under his rule, Christianity had been split into factions and as he saw it heresy had spread throughout the Empire. He wasn't cynical about his faith, he really was a committed Catholic, and so he believed that an increasing number of his subjects were condemming themselves to hell, and he hadn't done enough to stop this and might have been able to if only he'd broken his word back in the day and had locked the ex-monk up. And certainly Philip II's hardcore Catholic fundamentalism was driven by the idea he had to make up for Dad not having done enough to contain heresy. But defiling the dead still was the kind of thing that seemed pointless to Charles, and so he didn't do it. What he thought when standing at Luther's tomb in Wittenberg, who knows.
Aww, that's touching! Seems like most people in that era would have wanted another son <3
Quite. Mind you, being Charles' only son for the longest time (and his only legitimate son ever) put a great weight on Philip from early childhood onwards. If you want iron woobie material: Philip's mother Isabella died after a stillbirth when he was 13. It was summer. As per ceremony, the coffin had to be reopened so Philip could identify the body when leading her funeral (Charles not being there, which made Philip head of the family in absentia). Decomposition had already set in, and he fainted. He also never forgot it. (But when waking up again, still went through with the ceremony.)
hat happened to his daughter by Germaine de Fox?
She died as a child.
would totally be up for Duke of Alva fic where he gets outmanuevered by Barbara
Yuletide, maybe? The nineteenth century Allgemeine Deutsche Biography which is online and which otherwise as a very 19th century Protestant German work deeply disapproves of the Duke of Alva, scourge of brave Protestant Dutch freedom fighters, nonetheless takes his side there and calls Barbara a shameless hussy. Thankfully, in this case German wiki uses a more modern source (though the old article is linked) and calls her a "selbstbestimmte Frau" instead.
The Spanish tv series about Charles also does a Don Carlos nay, Juan de Austria yay thing, both of them as children, though, as they each meet Charles after his abdication in his retirement. Btw, the tv series is correct and Verdi is wrong about Charles NOT wearing a monk's habit, but his usual clothing. He didn't join the order when he moved in, he just wanted to spend his remaining years (two, as it turned out) there, and brought a small household with him, as well as some books and a lot of watches. (He was a keen amateur clockmaker.)
Charles meets grandson Don Carlos
Charles meets his son Juan de Austria for the first time
Charles meets his son the second time
(BTW, Charles slapping the insect away at the end of this last clip is ominous because he will die of Malaria.)
Lastly, Charles V. in TV Tropes
The reason why the originally named Jeronimo was renamed into Juan, btw, was that Charles when writing the last version of his will (wherein he openly acknowledged him) wanted to name him after his mother Juana (who had wanted Charles himself to be named Juan, but Philip le Bel insisted on naming his oldest son after his grandfather Charles the Bold of Burgundy). Remember, Juana had died shortly before Charles abdicated (and you might even say he could only abdicate because Juana had died, because if he had abdicated while she was still alive and technically the still reigning Queen of Castile, the question of rulership would again be on the table). Was it guilt? Memory? You decide.
Juana's death scene from the same show (in the presence of her oldest daughter Eleanor)