I think it's worth pointing out the religious situation of James' various children to [personal profile] cahn, and how this impacts the English succession, not to mention that the story contains some gossipy sensationalism.
...I am feeling seen :P :D Why yes, I am still in this for the gossipy sensationalism, thank you for indulging me :D
You're most welcome! Have some more entertaining gossipy quotes. Charles II, always good for a quip, about Anne's husband, George of Denmark:
"I have tried him drunk, and I have tried him sober and there is nothing in him".
When James II found himself ursurped by one daughter (Mary) and her husband (William of Orange), here's what happened with his other son in law, according to wiki:
George accompanied the King's troops to Salisbury in mid-November, but other nobles and their soldiers soon deserted James for William. At each defection, George apparently exclaimed, "Est-il possible?" (Is it possible?). He abandoned James on 24 November, and sided with William."So 'Est-il possible' is gone too", James supposedly remarked.
Mondieu, say I. As for James' other Protestant son-in-law, William and Mary had a good marriage for their age. However, since he had only one female mistress in his life (while Uncle Charles and Uncle James were merrily screwing around), rumors started (mostly by his Jacobite enemies) that maybe his preferences ran to the male form anyway. After Mary's death, said rumors intensified, especially since he had two male Dutch courtiers whom he favored and was close to, thereby allowing the English aristocracy to combine xenophobia and homophobia. Wiki again:
William's young protégé, Keppel, aroused more gossip and suspicion, being 20 years William's junior, strikingly handsome, and having risen from the post of a royal page to an earldom with some ease.[114] Portland wrote to William in 1697 that "the kindness which your Majesty has for a young man, and the way in which you seem to authorise his liberties ... make the world say things I am ashamed to hear."This, he said, was "tarnishing a reputation which has never before been subject to such accusations". William tersely dismissed these suggestions, however, saying, "It seems to me very extraordinary that it should be impossible to have esteem and regard for a young man without it being criminal."
We hear you, William. Historians I think are still divided whether he simply was a childless man looking for son substitutes - remember, he was positively impressed with young FW for this reason, too -, or a gay/bi man who, once widowed, thought "to hell with caution, I'm going to have male favourites in my last years".
Gossip: *is dead wrong, but fits the climate of the times. When Charles' marriage with Catherine of Braganza won't produce any living offspring, while Charles has illegitimate children galore, Anne's father will be accused by gossip of having matched Charles knowingly to an infertile woman, which is absolutely insane*
Ummmmm, wow! Because... it's so easy to tell that virgins are infertile *headdesk*
Meanwhile, James: I don't want to marry a girl I got pregnant ahead of marriage anyway. She's not worthy of me.
FACEPALM FOREVER
"So 'Est-il possible' is gone too", James supposedly remarked.
heeeeee!
However, since he had only one female mistress in his life (while Uncle Charles and Uncle James were merrily screwing around), rumors started (mostly by his Jacobite enemies) that maybe his preferences ran to the male form anyway.
William tersely dismissed these suggestions, however, saying, "It seems to me very extraordinary that it should be impossible to have esteem and regard for a young man without it being criminal."
Yep, I hear you too, WIlliam. One of the fascinating things I think about all this history is that all the trash talking I thought was of modern invention... totally isn't. (Only even more so!) I mean, regardless of whether it was true about William in particular.
Lol! Thank goodness for Selena, because I'm on a military history kick rn, sorry not sorry. :P Currently prepping my write-ups on Blenheim and Malplaquet (which, among other things, involves rereading the Malplaquet chapter in Horowski, which is one reason it's taking a few days).
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timeasmymeasure
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Hanovers and Stuarts
Date: 2021-05-20 05:30 am (UTC)...I am feeling seen :P :D Why yes, I am still in this for the gossipy sensationalism, thank you for indulging me :D
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Hanovers and Stuarts
Date: 2021-05-20 06:18 am (UTC)"I have tried him drunk, and I have tried him sober and there is nothing in him".
When James II found himself ursurped by one daughter (Mary) and her husband (William of Orange), here's what happened with his other son in law, according to wiki:
George accompanied the King's troops to Salisbury in mid-November, but other nobles and their soldiers soon deserted James for William. At each defection, George apparently exclaimed, "Est-il possible?" (Is it possible?). He abandoned James on 24 November, and sided with William."So 'Est-il possible' is gone too", James supposedly remarked.
Mondieu, say I. As for James' other Protestant son-in-law, William and Mary had a good marriage for their age. However, since he had only one female mistress in his life (while Uncle Charles and Uncle James were merrily screwing around), rumors started (mostly by his Jacobite enemies) that maybe his preferences ran to the male form anyway. After Mary's death, said rumors intensified, especially since he had two male Dutch courtiers whom he favored and was close to, thereby allowing the English aristocracy to combine xenophobia and homophobia. Wiki again:
William's young protégé, Keppel, aroused more gossip and suspicion, being 20 years William's junior, strikingly handsome, and having risen from the post of a royal page to an earldom with some ease.[114] Portland wrote to William in 1697 that "the kindness which your Majesty has for a young man, and the way in which you seem to authorise his liberties ... make the world say things I am ashamed to hear."This, he said, was "tarnishing a reputation which has never before been subject to such accusations". William tersely dismissed these suggestions, however, saying, "It seems to me very extraordinary that it should be impossible to have esteem and regard for a young man without it being criminal."
We hear you, William. Historians I think are still divided whether he simply was a childless man looking for son substitutes - remember, he was positively impressed with young FW for this reason, too -, or a gay/bi man who, once widowed, thought "to hell with caution, I'm going to have male favourites in my last years".
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Hanovers and Stuarts
Date: 2021-05-20 01:36 pm (UTC)I think I remember Horowski saying they're still divided, yeah.
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Hanovers and Stuarts
Date: 2021-05-22 05:26 pm (UTC)Gossip: *is dead wrong, but fits the climate of the times. When Charles' marriage with Catherine of Braganza won't produce any living offspring, while Charles has illegitimate children galore, Anne's father will be accused by gossip of having matched Charles knowingly to an infertile woman, which is absolutely insane*
Ummmmm, wow! Because... it's so easy to tell that virgins are infertile *headdesk*
Meanwhile, James: I don't want to marry a girl I got pregnant ahead of marriage anyway. She's not worthy of me.
FACEPALM FOREVER
"So 'Est-il possible' is gone too", James supposedly remarked.
heeeeee!
However, since he had only one female mistress in his life (while Uncle Charles and Uncle James were merrily screwing around), rumors started (mostly by his Jacobite enemies) that maybe his preferences ran to the male form anyway.
William tersely dismissed these suggestions, however, saying, "It seems to me very extraordinary that it should be impossible to have esteem and regard for a young man without it being criminal."
Yep, I hear you too, WIlliam. One of the fascinating things I think about all this history is that all the trash talking I thought was of modern invention... totally isn't. (Only even more so!) I mean, regardless of whether it was true about William in particular.
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Hanovers and Stuarts
Date: 2021-05-20 01:39 pm (UTC)