re: alleged quote from "a young debutante", that's the least convincing element of it all, because it's a variation of the punchline to so many "Royal X really a bastard/changeling!" stories. The oldest version I know features one of my favourite medieval characters, the other Friedrich II. (the Emperor), being told "of course I know who you are, you're the son of a butcher of Jesi!"
Because his mother Constanze had conceived him in her 30s, the "he's not really the baby of Constanze and her much hated husband Emperor Heinrich! The pregnancy was fake, and he's the baby of the butcher of Jesi, where he was born!" story was used as part of the papal propaganda in Friedrich's multiple clashes with the papacy. People on the pro-Friedrich side then came up with the story of Constanze, predicting this, had her labours in the middle of the Jesi market place attended by all the wives of the local burghers so they could see it was really her giving birth to this baby. The one thing true about either story was that Constanze, en route to Sicily, gave birth to Friedrich in Jesi. And that this was an event attended by a lot of people, because she was the Empress, in her later 30s, and thus didn't just have one midwive but several, as well as several physicians.
Another variation of the same story Edward IV. (of York and England) being told "of course I know who you are, you're the son of an archer of Rouen!" by a lady he hits on because of the "Cecily cheated on her husband with an archer!" Lancaster tale. And then there's Charles the Dauphin who'd be crowned by Jeanne d'Arc, who was told, "of course I know who you are, you're the son of..." etc, da capo, al fine.
The one thing plausible about the tale is Fritz obsessed securing the succession and not too fussy about who gets the siring done, as long as there are babies, but I would really prefer a contemporary mentioning the story in a letter or diary or memoir, preferably someone who actually is on good enough terms with any of the participants, or at least their staff, to make it likely someone slipped, or confided in them.
Ah, okay, I didn't realize that was a trope. I knew the stories of Constanze giving birth in a tent (and knew it wasn't true), and Joan of Arc, etc., of course, but not the punchline. Thank you for clarifying.
I would really prefer a contemporary mentioning the story in a letter or diary or memoir, preferably someone who actually is on good enough terms with any of the participants, or at least their staff, to make it likely someone slipped, or confided in them.
Oh, I agree, I don't believe a thing until we have an actual source that isn't Wikipedia or some random blog post that gets a dozen minor details wrong.
Obviously a geriatric woman in her 30's could not possibly have a real pregnancy! *sigh*
Though this is fascinating that it's such a common trope, wow.
Fritz obsessed securing the succession and not too fussy about who gets the siring done
But didn't you guys say before (when we were talking about MT/Fritz crackfic, and MT using FS as her stud) that he probably would be picky about the siring?
Well, for starters, we knew less then than we do know about the sheer number of Fritz quotes sympathizing with women whose men cheat on them having affairs as well. Now, while both the "he told Elisabeth, wife of FW2, to pick a suitable biodad and do it discreetly, and Elisabeth replied "oh yeah? Well, if I'm to fuck on the King's command, how about you do the same and do it with me now?" to the messenger, who in the story is is George Keith, Lord Marechal, and runs away" and now this "Ferdinand, his adjutant and his wife" tale could be entirely apocryphal and untrue, if either one is correct it would support the idea of lack of fussiness.
All this said? We still don't have evidence that Fritz would have kept up a "live and let live" stance if his OWN wife - EC or in the crack fic MT - would have taken him up on this enlightened position, taken a lover and supplied an heir which he would have known without the shadow of a doubt not to be his kid. Given the double standards he had elsewhere (as in "when I'm grieving, all of Europe needs to cry with me; if you're grieving, be a philosopher and get over it!"), who knows?
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Dogs and Ferdinand
Date: 2021-03-29 08:30 am (UTC)Because his mother Constanze had conceived him in her 30s, the "he's not really the baby of Constanze and her much hated husband Emperor Heinrich! The pregnancy was fake, and he's the baby of the butcher of Jesi, where he was born!" story was used as part of the papal propaganda in Friedrich's multiple clashes with the papacy. People on the pro-Friedrich side then came up with the story of Constanze, predicting this, had her labours in the middle of the Jesi market place attended by all the wives of the local burghers so they could see it was really her giving birth to this baby. The one thing true about either story was that Constanze, en route to Sicily, gave birth to Friedrich in Jesi. And that this was an event attended by a lot of people, because she was the Empress, in her later 30s, and thus didn't just have one midwive but several, as well as several physicians.
Another variation of the same story Edward IV. (of York and England) being told "of course I know who you are, you're the son of an archer of Rouen!" by a lady he hits on because of the "Cecily cheated on her husband with an archer!" Lancaster tale. And then there's Charles the Dauphin who'd be crowned by Jeanne d'Arc, who was told, "of course I know who you are, you're the son of..." etc, da capo, al fine.
The one thing plausible about the tale is Fritz obsessed securing the succession and not too fussy about who gets the siring done, as long as there are babies, but I would really prefer a contemporary mentioning the story in a letter or diary or memoir, preferably someone who actually is on good enough terms with any of the participants, or at least their staff, to make it likely someone slipped, or confided in them.
Re: Dogs and Ferdinand
Date: 2021-03-30 12:25 pm (UTC)I would really prefer a contemporary mentioning the story in a letter or diary or memoir, preferably someone who actually is on good enough terms with any of the participants, or at least their staff, to make it likely someone slipped, or confided in them.
Oh, I agree, I don't believe a thing until we have an actual source that isn't Wikipedia or some random blog post that gets a dozen minor details wrong.
Re: Dogs and Ferdinand
Date: 2021-04-01 04:01 am (UTC)Though this is fascinating that it's such a common trope, wow.
Fritz obsessed securing the succession and not too fussy about who gets the siring done
But didn't you guys say before (when we were talking about MT/Fritz crackfic, and MT using FS as her stud) that he probably would be picky about the siring?
Re: Dogs and Ferdinand
Date: 2021-04-01 08:12 am (UTC)All this said? We still don't have evidence that Fritz would have kept up a "live and let live" stance if his OWN wife - EC or in the crack fic MT - would have taken him up on this enlightened position, taken a lover and supplied an heir which he would have known without the shadow of a doubt not to be his kid. Given the double standards he had elsewhere (as in "when I'm grieving, all of Europe needs to cry with me; if you're grieving, be a philosopher and get over it!"), who knows?