At a first look, it's pretty informative. For personal reasons, I love all the Zelter stuff, because Rüdiger Safranski frustrated me in his Goethe biography by giving me next to nothing about Zelter, who was for the last 30 years of Goethe's life not only his most important correspondent but the only one of his new friends with whom he was on a "Du" footing. So I would have liked to know what kind of person he was, more of his background than two sentences, but does Safranksi deliver? He did not. Anyway, that's now rectified.
From salon pov, I have spotted some minor nitpicks in addition to what you've seen - for example, EC wasn't the Empress' cousin, she was the Empress' niece (unless Exner believes "the Empress" is MT as opposed to her mother in 1731/32?), and "Prussia's enemy" is certainly who "the Austrian Habsburgs" became, but they weren't in 1731. Not to mention that Fritz at that very time asked to get the daughter, not the niece of the Empress, but I'll forgive Exner for not knowing that since it's outside her main subject. :) (Which reminds me, one of these very busy days maybe you or me should collect all the Austrian marriage intrigue quotes together with Katte's interrogation statements for a separate Rheinsberg entry to demonstrate something which no biographer has clued into about one of Katte's motivations.) More seriously, though, is her Fredersdorf stuff which contains several misreadings both on her and her sources part. She says that Ledebur says Fredersdorf met Fritz some time before 1734 when visiting Frankfurt an der Oder with his father, and is basing that on Manger. I don't know about Ledebur, but I do know about Manger, who does not mention "with his father" nor "before 1734" at all but has the student Christmas concert for Fritz of 1731 in Frankfurt an der Oder variation (which Preuss would later use in his biography). Btw, we still don't know whether it was then or earlier at Küstrin, but we know at least this concert happened, since Fritz talks about it in a letter to Grumbkow to ensure neither he nor the students would get into trouble for it with Dad. Also, "in time, the two young men became friends" is misleading, not because of the potential romantic aspect of the relationship but because all variations of the Fritz/Fredersdorf origin story, whether Küstrin or Frankfurt an der Oder, say Fritz had Fredersdorf transfered from his regiment to his personal service and made him his valet.
Re: the Bach dedication - that's a slight misreading of both Exner on your part and possibly by Exner. It was the most exciting bit of your comment, so I loked for it first. :) Exner writes that Fredersdorf "was evidently the intended recipient of the "Sonata for Flute in E-Major BWV 1034" composed by J.S. Bach around 1741 on a visit to Berlin". Now I would have read that to mean Fredersdorf was the person the sonata was dedicated to at first glance as well, but strictly speaking, that's not what it says; it could also mean he was the recipient of a copy of the sonata. The footnote then clarifies even further as it quotes the original German. Exner's footnote: "The evidence for this is found on a manuscript copied ca. 1800 in the hand of the prominent Berlin resident Otto von Voß, jr., on which it is written "für den Kämmerer Fredersdorf aufgesetzt"."
"Aufgesetzt" instead of "geschrieben", "verfaßt" or "komponiert" actually makes it sound to me as if it was simply a copy of the score for this flute sonata written on Fredersdorf's request. Since the entire thing is in any event a copy in the handwriting of someone writing in 1800, not Bach's original handwriting, it's impossible to know, of course, but it makes more sense to me than an outright dedication, especially given that one reason why Bach's Berlin and Potsdam visit in 1747 was such a big deal was that he supposedly had never met Fritz before. Moreover, 1741 is damm early to dedicate anything to Fredersdorf. Perhaps if you're a young and ambitious composer in urgent need of a job, but J.S. Bach was none of these things. Now as his son joined Fritz' service in 1738, he could in theory have known who Fredersdorf was, but really, dedicating a flute sonata to the King's valet just recently made treasurer would have been highly unusual. Note that the "Musical Offering" is dedicated to Fritz straightforwardly in 1747, and the "Brandenburgian Concerto" is dedicated to F1's half brother Christian Ludwig who as Exner notes was the most important Prussian musical patron in the FW years. You don't dedicate compositions to non-noble valets risen to chamberlains, certainly not if you're J.S.B. near the end of your life and career.
You know what makes sense, though? For Fredersdorf, dedicated flutist, to want a copy of the score of a beautiful Bach sonata that's not in print yet! (No matter whether he wanted to play it for himself or for Fritz to play or to play to Fritz.) And that also gives us a glimpse at Fredersdorf's post 1740 feelings about music in addition to having to hire and fire musicians for Fritz.
Well, good, I'm glad that despite the inevitable historical boo-boos, it's got information you had been looking for!
but I'll forgive Exner for not knowing that since it's outside her main subject.
Alas, rheinsberg did not exist in 2010 as a reference for dissertation writers. ;)
More seriously, I noticed she's in the department of music, not the department of history.
Which reminds me, one of these very busy days maybe you or me should collect all the Austrian marriage intrigue quotes together with Katte's interrogation statements for a separate Rheinsberg entry to demonstrate something which no biographer has clued into about one of Katte's motivations.
Us and our original research. :D I've put it on my list.
She says that Ledebur says Fredersdorf met Fritz some time before 1734 when visiting Frankfurt an der Oder with his father, and is basing that on Manger. I don't know about Ledebur, but I do know about Manger, who does not mention "with his father" nor "before 1734" at all but has the student Christmas concert for Fritz of 1731 in Frankfurt an der Oder variation
I noticed!
Okay, so I checked out Ledebur, and I think she's misreading it (unless my German sucks): it says that as Fritz was traveling through Frankfurt a.d.O. (no date), there was a concert and he met Fredersdorf, liked him, summoned him the next day, and asked Schwerin for him. Then when Fritz and FW were traveling to the Rhine in 1734 (this is the Philipsburg campaign, cahn), Fredersdorf was taken along, and acquitted himself so well that Fritz made him valet and gave him Zernikow (either chronological nonsense on Ledebur's part or very poor German reading on my part). Now, I have read that Fredersdorf worked his way up, from lackey and musician to valet (and musician), so if he was only valet in 1734, that makes as much sense as anything (notice how cahn and I both played with his job role in Christmas 1733), but, if that's riding on mid-19th century Ledebur's account, then I don't consider him reliable enough for that.
Also of interest: Fredersdorf was a musician and son of a musician, but because he was so tall and well-built/well-grown? (gut gewachsen), he had to serve in the army!
Also, he was so intelligent that his 1750 trip to Paris, which was supposed to be for his health, was rumored to be a diplomatic mission! I thought he went for art purposes, but given Fritz and Fredersdorf's relationship, their secrecy and Fritz's paranoia, and Fritz's disastrous Algarotti mission, maybe he said, "Go and check out some art for me, and while you're there, keep your eyes and ears open." But to be clear, Ledebur isn't saying he was sent on a diplomatic mission, just that there were rumors to this effect, which I totally believe!
Also, reports that Fritz was supposed to have had tears in his eyes when he got the report of Fredersdorf's death in Dresden (was he in Dresden? I would have to check, I thought he was in Silesia, but he did move around a lot). I mean, I believe he did! I just want to know our source.
Ledebur's footnote says this is mostly based on Manger, but reports König's version as well.
Will get this in the library later today! (Note that I am reading the German quickly on an empty stomach, so accuracy may be worse than usual. ;) Otoh, the font is surprisingly not terrible!)
Re: the Bach dedication - that's a slight misreading of both Exner on your part and possibly by Exner.
That's totally what I thought it said, so thank you for clarifying the German for me. Still cool!
And that also gives us a glimpse at Fredersdorf's post 1740 feelings about music in addition to having to hire and fire musicians for Fritz.
Tears in his eyes: that's from Manger, though I'm not sure Manger says "Dresden"; in any event, Fritz wasn't there, he was in Breslau. With Amalie visiting. Which I happen to know. (Lehndorff writes about her visiting Fritz there in January. Winter HQ 1758: definitely BRESLAU.) As to who Manger might have it from: well, Fritz' idea of keeping him busy in the later 7 Years War was to let him teach the younger pages. (He even mentions a von Pirch as his favourite student, but it can't have been Carel since Manger says his von Pirch later went into French service, and Carel died.) So maybe from them?
acquitted himself so well that Fritz made him valet and gave him Zernikow (either chronological nonsense on Ledebur's part
Definitely that, as Exner claims it as well, and yeah, no. We have the 1740 dcoument (with all of Fritz' shiny new titles, remember), since Fahlenkamp thankfully reprinted it. Can you imagine what FW would have said if Fritz had given Fredersdorf something like Zernikow in his life time? *head explodes*
Speaking of rumors about Fredersdorf's Paris trip, something I didn't tell you is that Manger says there were rumors he met Louis XIV there. Which he doesn't believe, but there were rumors. Good on you for not believing them, Manger, what with Le Roi Soleil being dead since decades and Fredersdorf not into necromancy...
Also of interest: Fredersdorf was a musician and son of a musician, but because he was so tall and well-built/well-grown? (gut gewachsen), he had to serve in the army!
Well that was in Fahlenkamp as well. Again, I say, he so lucked out FW didn't recruit him as his personal oboist!
Tears in his eyes: that's from Manger, though I'm not sure Manger says "Dresden"; in any event, Fritz wasn't there, he was in Breslau. With Amalie visiting. Which I happen to know.
I know you know! But what I don't know is whether Fritz made a quick trip to Dresden while in winter quarters even if he was staying in Silesia. (Which he was doing because he had just taken Breslau after Leuthen, something I have reason to know about myself. ;) Breslau, which I remind you, had to be retaken because it just been surrendered by letter-forwarding, soon-to-be-cashiered cousin Katte.)
Speaking of cashiering, it in no way excuses Fritz's behavior toward AW, nor does it negate the psychological aspects of militarily crushing Dad's favorite son, the one he thought had so much military promise, but the more I read, the more I see the English cutting off the heads of admirals and generals who didn't engage with the enemy when the government thought they should have. I know Voltaire had satirized this in Candide (inventing the phrase "pour encourager les autres"), but I've now seen two English generals lose their heads in the War of the Spanish Succession too, fifty years earlier. Now, if Voltaire could see that this is outrageous, I'm not excusing Fritz, but when he said, "I would be justified in having your head cut off," there is contemporary military precedent. (The fraternal aspect and their joint FW history is what makes it so special.)
(He even mentions a von Pirch as his favourite student, but it can't have been Carel since Manger says his von Pirch later went into French service, and Carel died.
Also because Fredersdorf outlived Carel by a few months, if Carel died in 1757. But he had brothers, so who knows.
We have the 1740 dcoument (with all of Fritz' shiny new titles, remember)
I remember!
Can you imagine what FW would have said if Fritz had given Fredersdorf something like Zernikow in his life time? *head explodes*
No. What I also can't imagine is 1730s Fritz being stupid enough to do it. :P
"But Dad! He's so frugal! He's making it thrive! There's mulberry trees and everything. And he's tall and played the oboe in the military! Wouldn't you give him an estate??" :'D
Good on you for not believing them, Manger, what with Le Roi Soleil being dead since decades and Fredersdorf not into necromancy...
Lol! Um, any chance of a typo? I could see rumors that he met Louis XV, and people speculating about the political import of that meeting.
Well that was in Fahlenkamp as well.
Argh, when will my copy come so I can read it myself and remember what's in it? :P
Again, I say, he so lucked out FW didn't recruit him as his personal oboist!
Exactly the context in which I was reporting this!
Exner continues to be informative, but every now and then keeps including little mistakes which make me hickup. She seems to think Fredersdorf was actually one of the students in Frankfurt an der Oder, and got his musical training at college there. (As opposed to Dad the town piper.) And then she observes that Fritz' Rheinsberg capella is lacking an oboist and that "it is every unlikely that either Frederick himself or Fredersdorf were trained in playing the oboe".
Otoh, her pointing out that unlike Fritz' pre 1740 friends, his Rheinsberg musicians, as much as he'd occasionally bitch about them being an unruly lot in letters to Wilhelmine, survived the transition to the King Fritz era completely is very true. But no sooner do I nod that there's a sentence like her statement that Fritz, unlike many other kings, "did not give cabinet jobs to his drinking and hunting companions". Considering she keeps quoting from Thomas Carlyle and he's bound to have included that factoid in his many volumed biography, you'd think she knew that Fritz didn't have hunting companions. ;) (Also, there's the perfect Fritz quote expressing the same basic idea ready - his explanation as to why he doesn't want to talk politics with Voltaire: "That would be like drinking tea with one's mistress."
Cutting of heads: I hear you, and agree that it's the fraternal aspect and their shared FW history that makes it special. And, I might add, the following year. There's a reason why so many biographies tend to flash forward from Bautzen (casheering) to Oranienburg (AW dying) a year later, and don't mention the long year in between. Fritz had been pissed off at Schmettau, too, but Schmettau didn't get "it's your fault if we lose this war and all die!" and "the only thing you're fit to command is a seraglio" type of letters.
Can you imagine what FW would have said if Fritz had given Fredersdorf something like Zernikow in his life time? *head explodes*
No. What I also can't imagine is 1730s Fritz being stupid enough to do it. :P
LOL, agreed. Also, I dimly seem to recall Fritz didn't even own Zernikow until 1737 - he bought it then, it wasn't crown property but privately owned by a Colonel something or the other.
Pity lots of little historical details are off, but we'll forgive her.
"it is every unlikely that either Frederick himself or Fredersdorf were trained in playing the oboe".
*hiccup* Though I'm sure that's what they told FW!
LOL, agreed. Also, I dimly seem to recall Fritz didn't even own Zernikow until 1737 - he bought it then, it wasn't crown property but privately owned by a Colonel something or the other.
Good memory!
The Zernikow website provides the history of the estate before and after. It was chronically mismanaged and in debt through F1 and FW's reigns, and often changed its owner accordingly. Fritz bought it as Crown Prince in 1737 from the previous owner, a Lieutenant de Beville (who himself had bought it in 1731), and at first rented it to six citizens in the area. In 1740, when he ascended to the throne, he ended the contracts and gave it to Fredersdorf, who despite all his work for Fritz found time to completely reorganize the estate.
ETA:
Considering she keeps quoting from Thomas Carlyle and he's bound to have included that factoid in his many volumed biography, you'd think she knew that Fritz didn't have hunting companions. ;)
Or drinking companions. (Watered-down champagne doesn't count.) But let's be real: who reads the many volumed Carlyle biography in toto? Because I haven't, and as far as I know, you haven't. :P felis? Cover-to-cover?
But you should know that for other reasons, if your dissertation is on Fritz.
You know what makes sense, though? For Fredersdorf, dedicated flutist, to want a copy of the score of a beautiful Bach sonata that's not in print yet!
Ohhhh that does make a lot of sense. And yes to Fredersdorf's feelings <3
BTW I had a listen and it's (expectedly) a gorgeous sonata. (I don't usually listen to flute music, since I'm not a wind person, so this is also filling in gaps in my music literacy :) )
Rüdiger Safranski frustrated me in his Goethe biography by giving me next to nothing about Zelter, who was for the last 30 years of Goethe's life not only his most important correspondent but the only one of his new friends with whom he was on a "Du" footing. So I would have liked to know what kind of person he was, more of his background than two sentences, but does Safranksi deliver? He did not. Anyway, that's now rectified.
Okay, I'm curious about this -- how did he get to be on a "du" footing? I mean, did this new information about Zelter's personality give you any insight into that?
He was an autodidact, starting out as a bricklayer and being so in love with music that he became member of an orchestra, then of the Sing Akademie, then the leader of the Sing Akademie. He taught both Felix and Fanny Mendelssohn as children and youngsters (and is responsible for Felix playing for Goethe in Weimar and getting compared to child!Mozart, whom Goethe saw as a teenager in Frankfurt playing together with Nannerl). (Err, Goethe was the teenager, when seeing child Mozart. Mozart was eight or seven, I think.) There's a lovely Goethe characterisation of him: „In Gesprächen ist Zelter genial und trifft immer den Nagel auf den Kopf […] Er kann bei der ersten Begegnung etwas sehr derb, ja mitunter sogar etwas roh erscheinen. Allein, das ist nur äußerlich. Ich kenne kaum jemanden, der zugleich so zart wäre wie Zelter.
("In conversation, Zelter is a genius and always hits the ball in the corner. He may appear a bit rough, sometimes even rude when you first meet him. But this is only the outside. I hardly know anyone who at the same time is so tender as Zelter.")
In addition to coming across as sympathetic, I think "Du" was partly because he was a self made man who rose from humble circumstances and who combined passion for art with at times gruff manners. I don't think Goethe (who himself rose from middle class commoner to ennobled goverment official courtesy of Carl August) would have offered the "Du" to a nobleman. (Especially not as an older man.) But to former bricklayer (that's why he renovated Nicolai's house, btw) Zelter? Absolutely.
And that's a gorgeous sonata indeed. Which we now know Frederdorf loved!
I keep being surprised by how small their world is! So many connections between people. (Mildred's findings regarding Peter's Knyphausen in-laws was another one of those instances.)
That's why it's so easy to play Six Degrees To Algarotti with them. :)
Zelter: Zelter met and interacted with Amalie, who knew Algarotti personally when he lived in Berlin. That's almost too easy. However, how's this:
Queen Victoria to Algarotti! Victoria encountered Felix Mendelsohn (with a little awkward moment when it turned out her favourite of his Lieder had been composed by his sister Fanny). Felix met Zelter who met Amalie who met Algarotti.
Good grief. It just occured to me. Victoria being everyone's Grandma, you can also connect Wilhelm II. to Algarotti in one more step....
I had tea with Wolfgang Wagner (grandson of Richard) (and he brought me to the train I had to catch in his car). Wolfgang's father Siegfried knew Richard who knew Felix Mendelssohn who knew Zelter who knew Amalie who knew Algarotti, so I can't manage it in six steps but almost. (Both Richard and Siegfried Wagner had their respective children rather late in life, which is why Wolfgang didn't know his grandfather. He did know his grandmother, of course, as Cosima had her children younger, and grew much older than Richard did. So maybe I could manage something closer through the Liszt connection, to wit.
Wolfgang - Cosima - her father Franz Liszt - Antonio Salieri - Lorenzo Da Ponte - Algarotti!
(Thinking about this is more pleasant than being aware I'm just a handshake away from the Worst Fanboy, who after all was fangirled himself like no one's business by Winifred Wagner, Wolfgang's mother.)
That's 6 steps for you and 7 for me (through you)! Not bad, considering how remote in time he is. :D
(Thinking about this is more pleasant than being aware I'm just a handshake away from the Worst Fanboy, who after all was fanboyed himself like no one's business by Winifred Wagner, Wolfgang's mother.)
I know! Just in the last few days, I've learned that Goethe was BFFs with Zelter, who was a bricklayer who helped renovate Nicolai's house, which was the same house that Peter Keith lived in with Frau von Knyphausen, who (with her husband) had bought it from his predecessor Herr von Blaspiel, who (along with his wife) was banished as a result of the Clement affair that we just learned about (but had been described in Wilhelmine's memoirs), and that, going a little further back in time, this Knyphausen of whom we've heard on several occasions before was painted by Pesne, and that led to F1 inviting Pesne to Berlin, with so many results that we've seen. And that's not counting the Knyphausen connections you mention!
This is what Horowski's so good at and so frustrated that many other historians aren't.
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Book review I: Der Meister von Sanssouci - Fredersdorf and historical footnotes
Date: 2021-03-19 09:06 am (UTC)From salon pov, I have spotted some minor nitpicks in addition to what you've seen - for example, EC wasn't the Empress' cousin, she was the Empress' niece (unless Exner believes "the Empress" is MT as opposed to her mother in 1731/32?), and "Prussia's enemy" is certainly who "the Austrian Habsburgs" became, but they weren't in 1731. Not to mention that Fritz at that very time asked to get the daughter, not the niece of the Empress, but I'll forgive Exner for not knowing that since it's outside her main subject. :) (Which reminds me, one of these very busy days maybe you or me should collect all the Austrian marriage intrigue quotes together with Katte's interrogation statements for a separate Rheinsberg entry to demonstrate something which no biographer has clued into about one of Katte's motivations.) More seriously, though, is her Fredersdorf stuff which contains several misreadings both on her and her sources part. She says that Ledebur says Fredersdorf met Fritz some time before 1734 when visiting Frankfurt an der Oder with his father, and is basing that on Manger. I don't know about Ledebur, but I do know about Manger, who does not mention "with his father" nor "before 1734" at all but has the student Christmas concert for Fritz of 1731 in Frankfurt an der Oder variation (which Preuss would later use in his biography). Btw, we still don't know whether it was then or earlier at Küstrin, but we know at least this concert happened, since Fritz talks about it in a letter to Grumbkow to ensure neither he nor the students would get into trouble for it with Dad. Also, "in time, the two young men became friends" is misleading, not because of the potential romantic aspect of the relationship but because all variations of the Fritz/Fredersdorf origin story, whether Küstrin or Frankfurt an der Oder, say Fritz had Fredersdorf transfered from his regiment to his personal service and made him his valet.
Re: the Bach dedication - that's a slight misreading of both Exner on your part and possibly by Exner. It was the most exciting bit of your comment, so I loked for it first. :) Exner writes that Fredersdorf "was evidently the intended recipient of the "Sonata for Flute in E-Major BWV 1034" composed by J.S. Bach around 1741 on a visit to Berlin". Now I would have read that to mean Fredersdorf was the person the sonata was dedicated to at first glance as well, but strictly speaking, that's not what it says; it could also mean he was the recipient of a copy of the sonata. The footnote then clarifies even further as it quotes the original German. Exner's footnote: "The evidence for this is found on a manuscript copied ca. 1800 in the hand of the prominent Berlin resident Otto von Voß, jr., on which it is written "für den Kämmerer Fredersdorf aufgesetzt"."
"Aufgesetzt" instead of "geschrieben", "verfaßt" or "komponiert" actually makes it sound to me as if it was simply a copy of the score for this flute sonata written on Fredersdorf's request. Since the entire thing is in any event a copy in the handwriting of someone writing in 1800, not Bach's original handwriting, it's impossible to know, of course, but it makes more sense to me than an outright dedication, especially given that one reason why Bach's Berlin and Potsdam visit in 1747 was such a big deal was that he supposedly had never met Fritz before. Moreover, 1741 is damm early to dedicate anything to Fredersdorf. Perhaps if you're a young and ambitious composer in urgent need of a job, but J.S. Bach was none of these things. Now as his son joined Fritz' service in 1738, he could in theory have known who Fredersdorf was, but really, dedicating a flute sonata to the King's valet just recently made treasurer would have been highly unusual. Note that the "Musical Offering" is dedicated to Fritz straightforwardly in 1747, and the "Brandenburgian Concerto" is dedicated to F1's half brother Christian Ludwig who as Exner notes was the most important Prussian musical patron in the FW years. You don't dedicate compositions to non-noble valets risen to chamberlains, certainly not if you're J.S.B. near the end of your life and career.
You know what makes sense, though? For Fredersdorf, dedicated flutist, to want a copy of the score of a beautiful Bach sonata that's not in print yet! (No matter whether he wanted to play it for himself or for Fritz to play or to play to Fritz.) And that also gives us a glimpse at Fredersdorf's post 1740 feelings about music in addition to having to hire and fire musicians for Fritz.
Music diss
Date: 2021-03-19 05:35 pm (UTC)but I'll forgive Exner for not knowing that since it's outside her main subject.
Alas,
More seriously, I noticed she's in the department of music, not the department of history.
Which reminds me, one of these very busy days maybe you or me should collect all the Austrian marriage intrigue quotes together with Katte's interrogation statements for a separate Rheinsberg entry to demonstrate something which no biographer has clued into about one of Katte's motivations.
Us and our original research. :D I've put it on my list.
She says that Ledebur says Fredersdorf met Fritz some time before 1734 when visiting Frankfurt an der Oder with his father, and is basing that on Manger. I don't know about Ledebur, but I do know about Manger, who does not mention "with his father" nor "before 1734" at all but has the student Christmas concert for Fritz of 1731 in Frankfurt an der Oder variation
I noticed!
Okay, so I checked out Ledebur, and I think she's misreading it (unless my German sucks): it says that as Fritz was traveling through Frankfurt a.d.O. (no date), there was a concert and he met Fredersdorf, liked him, summoned him the next day, and asked Schwerin for him. Then when Fritz and FW were traveling to the Rhine in 1734 (this is the Philipsburg campaign, cahn), Fredersdorf was taken along, and acquitted himself so well that Fritz made him valet and gave him Zernikow (either chronological nonsense on Ledebur's part or very poor German reading on my part). Now, I have read that Fredersdorf worked his way up, from lackey and musician to valet (and musician), so if he was only valet in 1734, that makes as much sense as anything (notice how
Also of interest: Fredersdorf was a musician and son of a musician, but because he was so tall and well-built/well-grown? (gut gewachsen), he had to serve in the army!
Also, he was so intelligent that his 1750 trip to Paris, which was supposed to be for his health, was rumored to be a diplomatic mission! I thought he went for art purposes, but given Fritz and Fredersdorf's relationship, their secrecy and Fritz's paranoia, and Fritz's disastrous Algarotti mission, maybe he said, "Go and check out some art for me, and while you're there, keep your eyes and ears open." But to be clear, Ledebur isn't saying he was sent on a diplomatic mission, just that there were rumors to this effect, which I totally believe!
Also, reports that Fritz was supposed to have had tears in his eyes when he got the report of Fredersdorf's death in Dresden (was he in Dresden? I would have to check, I thought he was in Silesia, but he did move around a lot). I mean, I believe he did! I just want to know our source.
Ledebur's footnote says this is mostly based on Manger, but reports König's version as well.
Will get this in the library later today! (Note that I am reading the German quickly on an empty stomach, so accuracy may be worse than usual. ;) Otoh, the font is surprisingly not terrible!)
Re: the Bach dedication - that's a slight misreading of both Exner on your part and possibly by Exner.
That's totally what I thought it said, so thank you for clarifying the German for me. Still cool!
And that also gives us a glimpse at Fredersdorf's post 1740 feelings about music in addition to having to hire and fire musicians for Fritz.
Yesss. <3
Re: Music diss
Date: 2021-03-19 05:55 pm (UTC)acquitted himself so well that Fritz made him valet and gave him Zernikow (either chronological nonsense on Ledebur's part
Definitely that, as Exner claims it as well, and yeah, no. We have the 1740 dcoument (with all of Fritz' shiny new titles, remember), since Fahlenkamp thankfully reprinted it. Can you imagine what FW would have said if Fritz had given Fredersdorf something like Zernikow in his life time? *head explodes*
Speaking of rumors about Fredersdorf's Paris trip, something I didn't tell you is that Manger says there were rumors he met Louis XIV there. Which he doesn't believe, but there were rumors. Good on you for not believing them, Manger, what with Le Roi Soleil being dead since decades and Fredersdorf not into necromancy...
Also of interest: Fredersdorf was a musician and son of a musician, but because he was so tall and well-built/well-grown? (gut gewachsen), he had to serve in the army!
Well that was in Fahlenkamp as well. Again, I say, he so lucked out FW didn't recruit him as his personal oboist!
Re: Music diss
Date: 2021-03-19 08:15 pm (UTC)I know you know! But what I don't know is whether Fritz made a quick trip to Dresden while in winter quarters even if he was staying in Silesia. (Which he was doing because he had just taken Breslau after Leuthen, something I have reason to know about myself. ;) Breslau, which I remind you, had to be retaken because it just been surrendered by letter-forwarding, soon-to-be-cashiered cousin Katte.)
Speaking of cashiering, it in no way excuses Fritz's behavior toward AW, nor does it negate the psychological aspects of militarily crushing Dad's favorite son, the one he thought had so much military promise, but the more I read, the more I see the English cutting off the heads of admirals and generals who didn't engage with the enemy when the government thought they should have. I know Voltaire had satirized this in Candide (inventing the phrase "pour encourager les autres"), but I've now seen two English generals lose their heads in the War of the Spanish Succession too, fifty years earlier. Now, if Voltaire could see that this is outrageous, I'm not excusing Fritz, but when he said, "I would be justified in having your head cut off," there is contemporary military precedent. (The fraternal aspect and their joint FW history is what makes it so special.)
(He even mentions a von Pirch as his favourite student, but it can't have been Carel since Manger says his von Pirch later went into French service, and Carel died.
Also because Fredersdorf outlived Carel by a few months, if Carel died in 1757. But he had brothers, so who knows.
We have the 1740 dcoument (with all of Fritz' shiny new titles, remember)
I remember!
Can you imagine what FW would have said if Fritz had given Fredersdorf something like Zernikow in his life time? *head explodes*
No. What I also can't imagine is 1730s Fritz being stupid enough to do it. :P
"But Dad! He's so frugal! He's making it thrive! There's mulberry trees and everything. And he's tall and played the oboe in the military! Wouldn't you give him an estate??" :'D
Good on you for not believing them, Manger, what with Le Roi Soleil being dead since decades and Fredersdorf not into necromancy...
Lol! Um, any chance of a typo? I could see rumors that he met Louis XV, and people speculating about the political import of that meeting.
Well that was in Fahlenkamp as well.
Argh, when will my copy come so I can read it myself and remember what's in it? :P
Again, I say, he so lucked out FW didn't recruit him as his personal oboist!
Exactly the context in which I was reporting this!
Re: Music diss
Date: 2021-03-20 02:30 pm (UTC)Otoh, her pointing out that unlike Fritz' pre 1740 friends, his Rheinsberg musicians, as much as he'd occasionally bitch about them being an unruly lot in letters to Wilhelmine, survived the transition to the King Fritz era completely is very true. But no sooner do I nod that there's a sentence like her statement that Fritz, unlike many other kings, "did not give cabinet jobs to his drinking and hunting companions". Considering she keeps quoting from Thomas Carlyle and he's bound to have included that factoid in his many volumed biography, you'd think she knew that Fritz didn't have hunting companions. ;) (Also, there's the perfect Fritz quote expressing the same basic idea ready - his explanation as to why he doesn't want to talk politics with Voltaire: "That would be like drinking tea with one's mistress."
Cutting of heads: I hear you, and agree that it's the fraternal aspect and their shared FW history that makes it special. And, I might add, the following year. There's a reason why so many biographies tend to flash forward from Bautzen (casheering) to Oranienburg (AW dying) a year later, and don't mention the long year in between. Fritz had been pissed off at Schmettau, too, but Schmettau didn't get "it's your fault if we lose this war and all die!" and "the only thing you're fit to command is a seraglio" type of letters.
Can you imagine what FW would have said if Fritz had given Fredersdorf something like Zernikow in his life time? *head explodes*
No. What I also can't imagine is 1730s Fritz being stupid enough to do it. :P
LOL, agreed. Also, I dimly seem to recall Fritz didn't even own Zernikow until 1737 - he bought it then, it wasn't crown property but privately owned by a Colonel something or the other.
Re: Music diss
Date: 2021-03-20 04:31 pm (UTC)"it is every unlikely that either Frederick himself or Fredersdorf were trained in playing the oboe".
*hiccup* Though I'm sure that's what they told FW!
LOL, agreed. Also, I dimly seem to recall Fritz didn't even own Zernikow until 1737 - he bought it then, it wasn't crown property but privately owned by a Colonel something or the other.
Good memory!
The Zernikow website provides the history of the estate before and after. It was chronically mismanaged and in debt through F1 and FW's reigns, and often changed its owner accordingly. Fritz bought it as Crown Prince in 1737 from the previous owner, a Lieutenant de Beville (who himself had bought it in 1731), and at first rented it to six citizens in the area. In 1740, when he ascended to the throne, he ended the contracts and gave it to Fredersdorf, who despite all his work for Fritz found time to completely reorganize the estate.
ETA:
Considering she keeps quoting from Thomas Carlyle and he's bound to have included that factoid in his many volumed biography, you'd think she knew that Fritz didn't have hunting companions. ;)
Or drinking companions. (Watered-down champagne doesn't count.) But let's be real: who reads the many volumed Carlyle biography in toto? Because I haven't, and as far as I know, you haven't. :P
But you should know that for other reasons, if your dissertation is on Fritz.
Bach and Zelter
Date: 2021-03-21 05:37 am (UTC)Ohhhh that does make a lot of sense. And yes to Fredersdorf's feelings <3
BTW I had a listen and it's (expectedly) a gorgeous sonata. (I don't usually listen to flute music, since I'm not a wind person, so this is also filling in gaps in my music literacy :) )
Rüdiger Safranski frustrated me in his Goethe biography by giving me next to nothing about Zelter, who was for the last 30 years of Goethe's life not only his most important correspondent but the only one of his new friends with whom he was on a "Du" footing. So I would have liked to know what kind of person he was, more of his background than two sentences, but does Safranksi deliver? He did not. Anyway, that's now rectified.
Okay, I'm curious about this -- how did he get to be on a "du" footing? I mean, did this new information about Zelter's personality give you any insight into that?
Re: Bach and Zelter
Date: 2021-03-21 01:19 pm (UTC)("In conversation, Zelter is a genius and always hits the ball in the corner. He may appear a bit rough, sometimes even rude when you first meet him. But this is only the outside. I hardly know anyone who at the same time is so tender as Zelter.")
In addition to coming across as sympathetic, I think "Du" was partly because he was a self made man who rose from humble circumstances and who combined passion for art with at times gruff manners. I don't think Goethe (who himself rose from middle class commoner to ennobled goverment official courtesy of Carl August) would have offered the "Du" to a nobleman. (Especially not as an older man.) But to former bricklayer (that's why he renovated Nicolai's house, btw) Zelter? Absolutely.
And that's a gorgeous sonata indeed. Which we now know Frederdorf loved!
Re: Bach and Zelter
Date: 2021-03-21 05:03 pm (UTC)Re: Bach and Zelter
Date: 2021-03-21 05:08 pm (UTC)Zelter: Zelter met and interacted with Amalie, who knew Algarotti personally when he lived in Berlin. That's almost too easy. However, how's this:
Queen Victoria to Algarotti! Victoria encountered Felix Mendelsohn (with a little awkward moment when it turned out her favourite of his Lieder had been composed by his sister Fanny). Felix met Zelter who met Amalie who met Algarotti.
Good grief. It just occured to me. Victoria being everyone's Grandma, you can also connect Wilhelm II. to Algarotti in one more step....
Re: Bach and Zelter
Date: 2021-03-21 05:09 pm (UTC)Re: Bach and Zelter
Date: 2021-03-21 05:17 pm (UTC)Wolfgang - Cosima - her father Franz Liszt - Antonio Salieri - Lorenzo Da Ponte - Algarotti!
(Thinking about this is more pleasant than being aware I'm just a handshake away from the Worst Fanboy, who after all was fangirled himself like no one's business by Winifred Wagner, Wolfgang's mother.)
Re: Bach and Zelter
Date: 2021-03-21 05:20 pm (UTC)(Thinking about this is more pleasant than being aware I'm just a handshake away from the Worst Fanboy, who after all was fanboyed himself like no one's business by Winifred Wagner, Wolfgang's mother.)
Yes, let's think about Algarotti.
Re: Bach and Zelter
Date: 2021-03-21 06:54 pm (UTC)This is what Horowski's so good at and so frustrated that many other historians aren't.