Ooh, this is surprisingly like and unlike the story of Fritz and Catt not being able to think of the name of an opera and going crazy over it.
The part I left out here: on this occasion, he'd actually called Dantal early in the morning to collect some books for him (not sure if nobody but his reader was allowed in the library or why, Dantal doesn't say), so when Dantal came back from his walk into town, Fritz was supposed to be in a meeting with someone else, but called Dantal in first to tell him the right name and get the book in question. So, you know, priorities, even if it isn't quite keeping someone up at night.
Oooh, so I new they had the letters on the covers, and I knew that he often referred to what we think of as Sanssouci as his "vineyard", but I didn't realize that extended as far as thinking of it as V and the New Palace as S! Huh.
It did indeed. I'd encountered this before and made a note of it to remind myself, particularly because it could lead to confusion re: New Palais vs. Sanssouci when he refers to the "palais de Sanssouci" for example. (Had to think of it again during the recent discussion of his will, because the Vignes designation is yet another garden/nature-related preference.) Speaking of his libraries, though - not sure if you are aware that they have their own searchable catalogue? So if you want to check if Fritz owned a copy of a certain book, and where he kept it, you can find out.
(Was 4th century Athenian oratory what I was in the middle of studying in 2019 when I got sucked into full-time Fritz? You bet it was! :'D)
Ahaha, I knew you'd have something to say about the classics reading and that I might be on thin ice translating what Dantal says about it because I lack context. Did not expect your knowledge to be quite this on point, though. ;) Lovely to get more context, also regarding the Greek pronunciation.
And I see you already read my comment on the German vs. French version of the book, so. :)
So, you know, priorities, even if it isn't quite keeping someone up at night.
Heee!
Speaking of his libraries, though - not sure if you are aware that they have their own searchable catalogue? So if you want to check if Fritz owned a copy of a certain book, and where he kept it, you can find out.
Yep, we had turned that up, but the unfortunate part is that I almost never want to know if Fritz had a certain book, I want to browse a list of books that he owned and go "Ooh, I didn't know he had that!" or "Never heard of this, let me find out more!" The catalogue is apparently based on a published list that's public domain, but I've never been able to find it. Bogdan Krieger, "Friedrich der Große und seine Bücher." Admittedly I haven't checked in a very long time, and I've turned up several new resources for finding scanned books since then, so I should check again. And I did see a relevant-looking Krieger article in one of the Hohenzollern yearbooks and made a mental note to check it out someday.
Huh, I found another book by him published in 1914, on the royal Hohenzollern book possessions, and I see that at least in 1914 the Bible Fritz used at Küstrin was still in the royal collection. It had been conveyed to Fritz by Eversmann (greatly in favor with the king), he underlined a lot of passages, illuminated some copperplate engravings, and designated (? bezeichnet) some passages. After he left Küstrin, the Bible was taken back by Eversmann, who passed it on to his descendants, until in the 19th century the family decided to give it to the royal collection. And this is all described in the handwritten note of the 19th century editor on the first page of the volume. (See, I can read German for research purposes as long as it's only a paragraph!)
But you are good at turning up volumes, felis, perhaps you can turn up the 1914 catalogue for me!
I might be on thin ice translating what Dantal says about it because I lack context.
Yeah, I could immediately see it was totally a game of telephones. "Harangue" -> "Rede" and "Rede" -> "speech" were both totally reasonable translator decisions! But in the end, we get Isocrates giving Philip a speech, to which I was like, "?? I need to Google this and make sure I'm not crazy." Oh, the other thing is that I'm like...90?...percent sure that Isocrates, unlike the aforementioned orators, never met Philip in person. Which is not to say that there wasn't a genre of things called "speeches" that were never presented in person. (To what extent the published speeches by actual orators who did deliver something along the lines of what they wrote in the Assembly actually resemble what they said out loud is hugely up for debate).
But in any case, Isocrates was constantly writing, "Let's all stop killing each other and go kill some Persians instead! It'll be great, just like the olden, golden days of our ancestors! Panhellenic crusade fuck yeah!" and being ignored by like everyone. :P
Did not expect your knowledge to be quite this on point, though. ;)
Lol, yeah, some days it's like, "Dio Cassius, yeah, I've heard of him," and others, it's like, "Settle in while we talk about 4th century Athens." ;) I do fully intend to someday pick up where I left off when I got interrupted by THE MOST WONDERFUL EXPERIENCE OF MY LIFE. German and French first, though!
ETA: Oh, Maecenas, I should say a word about him for at least cahn, and maybe others. (selenak I fully expect to know this.) He was a Roman poet, but what he was most famous for, even more than being friends with Augustus, was being a patron of the arts, and for patronizing Vergil and Horace specifically.
So yeah, when you see Europeans refer to him later, it's often in a context of "And you, rich person X, you will be a Maecenas, honored throughout the ages for your part in sponsoring our nation's counterpart to the Latin golden age, by which I mean give me money and I'll say nice things about you!" Manteuffel casting himself as the patron who is also the truth-teller to power, and focusing on the Maecenas-Augustus relationship, instead of the Maecenas/Vergil or Maecenas/Horace relationship is...I'm not widely read enough to know if it's unusual per se, but I certainly haven't seen it as often.
And there ends my knowledge of Maecenas. (There's a strong divide between Roman and Greek in terms of whether something falls into the "I've heard of that!" or "Settle in" category, although it's not absolute.)
Lovely to get more context, also regarding the Greek pronunciation.
I have to admit that I have noooo idea about 18th century French pronunciation of Greek names. I could see from Dantal that if I was willing to stop and work my way through a page, I could be enlightened! But while I'm curious, time is short, and I'll come back to it when my German and/or French are faster.
But in general, I think it's reasonable for speakers of modern European languages to have different ideas about how to pronounce Greek names, because you're really just translating into your own language. There's *no* way you're going to produce anything like authentic Greek (which wasn't even a stress-based language!), and Greek accentuation patterns just *really* do not match English, French, or German ones, not even as much as Latin (which is not much).
Ancient Greek phonology: something I studied *way* back when, and traces of which still float around in my brain, though I'm much more likely to say something wrong, so I'll stop here.
YESSS! I *thought* that might be it! But German + blackletter + teeny tiny font and I = very slow enemies, so I had not yet girded my loins to check. (Slow page load time is also a thing, ugh.)
Maecenas: a reminder that Goethe in his late life poem for Carl August puns on Carl August's name and the traditional European Maecenas reference when he concludes the poem with "Niemals frug ein Kaiser nach mir, es hat sich kein König /Um mich bekümmert, und er war mir August und Mäcen" ("No emperor took me in, nor did a king ever care/ He was my Augustus and Maecenas in one").
And yes, Manteuffel going for the Augustus and Maecenas relationship is unusual to my knowledge, too; the authors of the "Hervey and Fritz of Wales" essay when summarizing the "good" and "bad" favourite classical comparisons in Europe at that time point out that Hephaistion is usually the go-to-guy if you want to style yourself as the good favourite who is intensely close to his lord but also speaks truth to power when necessary, and is very competent, too. Of course, here two factors might have caused Manteuffel to go for Maecenas instead - Hephaistion is of the same age as Alexander (Maecenas was the same age like Augustus, too, but that's not relevant to the story) and a soldier, whereas Maecenas wasn't a soldier, that was Agrippa (of the two friends of Octavian's youth). And Manteuffel wasn't a soldier, either. Also? He's talking to a young man who approached him specifically for a cultural education originally, and to one who is always in need of money.
Which brngs me back to Maecenas. When I say he wasn't a soldier, I don't mean he wasn't into politics. On the contrary. He arranged Augustus' first marriage to Scribonia (which ended when Augustus married Livia, but not before resulting in poor Julia, his only daughter), and was responsible for negotiating the treasy of Brundisium which reconciled Octavian with Mark Antony (for some years, until, etc.), and was Augustus' regent in Rome while Augustus and Agrippa were off to fight Antony and Cleopatra at Actium. Also possible not irrelevant: Maecenas famously left Augustus all his money as well as his extensive gardens, which ended up being used by Nero as building ground for his Domus Aureus a few generation later.
Lastly: Maecenas was, among others, famously Horace's patron, and Manteuffel was really and genuinely into Horace; as mentioned in my write up, he translated all of Horace's poems for his own benefit (Latin to French, not Latin to German) in his old age. I don't know when Fritz started to discover Horace for himself (in French translation, of course), but Horace as far as I know was a later day favourite, and it might have been through Manteuffel at that.
See, this is why we should do a Classics salon someday (years from now)--we'll have alchemy while I cover the Greeks and you cover the Romans!
Maecenas: a reminder that Goethe in his late life poem for Carl August puns on Carl August's name and the traditional European Maecenas reference
Oh, right, I remember that now! Like cahn, I benefit from reminders from time to time. :)
I don't know when Fritz started to discover Horace for himself (in French translation, of course), but Horace as far as I know was a later day favourite, and it might have been through Manteuffel at that.
The earliest Fritz-Horace connection I can think of off the top of my head is that ceiling Pesne painted at Rheinsberg, which, as a reminder to people who need it, had the names "Voltaire" and "Horace" painted on the pages of an open book. And that's after Fritz had gotten to know Manteuffel, so yes, could have been his influence at work there.
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Dantal: Dog Name, Reading, and other Details (1784-86)
Date: 2021-03-06 08:36 pm (UTC)The part I left out here: on this occasion, he'd actually called Dantal early in the morning to collect some books for him (not sure if nobody but his reader was allowed in the library or why, Dantal doesn't say), so when Dantal came back from his walk into town, Fritz was supposed to be in a meeting with someone else, but called Dantal in first to tell him the right name and get the book in question. So, you know, priorities, even if it isn't quite keeping someone up at night.
Oooh, so I new they had the letters on the covers, and I knew that he often referred to what we think of as Sanssouci as his "vineyard", but I didn't realize that extended as far as thinking of it as V and the New Palace as S! Huh.
It did indeed. I'd encountered this before and made a note of it to remind myself, particularly because it could lead to confusion re: New Palais vs. Sanssouci when he refers to the "palais de Sanssouci" for example. (Had to think of it again during the recent discussion of his will, because the Vignes designation is yet another garden/nature-related preference.)
Speaking of his libraries, though - not sure if you are aware that they have their own searchable catalogue? So if you want to check if Fritz owned a copy of a certain book, and where he kept it, you can find out.
(Was 4th century Athenian oratory what I was in the middle of studying in 2019 when I got sucked into full-time Fritz? You bet it was! :'D)
Ahaha, I knew you'd have something to say about the classics reading and that I might be on thin ice translating what Dantal says about it because I lack context. Did not expect your knowledge to be quite this on point, though. ;) Lovely to get more context, also regarding the Greek pronunciation.
And I see you already read my comment on the German vs. French version of the book, so. :)
Re: Dantal: Dog Name, Reading, and other Details (1784-86)
Date: 2021-03-06 09:35 pm (UTC)Heee!
Speaking of his libraries, though - not sure if you are aware that they have their own searchable catalogue? So if you want to check if Fritz owned a copy of a certain book, and where he kept it, you can find out.
Yep, we had turned that up, but the unfortunate part is that I almost never want to know if Fritz had a certain book, I want to browse a list of books that he owned and go "Ooh, I didn't know he had that!" or "Never heard of this, let me find out more!" The catalogue is apparently based on a published list that's public domain, but I've never been able to find it. Bogdan Krieger, "Friedrich der Große und seine Bücher." Admittedly I haven't checked in a very long time, and I've turned up several new resources for finding scanned books since then, so I should check again. And I did see a relevant-looking Krieger article in one of the Hohenzollern yearbooks and made a mental note to check it out someday.
Huh, I found another book by him published in 1914, on the royal Hohenzollern book possessions, and I see that at least in 1914 the Bible Fritz used at Küstrin was still in the royal collection. It had been conveyed to Fritz by Eversmann (greatly in favor with the king), he underlined a lot of passages, illuminated some copperplate engravings, and designated (? bezeichnet) some passages. After he left Küstrin, the Bible was taken back by Eversmann, who passed it on to his descendants, until in the 19th century the family decided to give it to the royal collection. And this is all described in the handwritten note of the 19th century editor on the first page of the volume. (See, I can read German for research purposes as long as it's only a paragraph!)
But you are good at turning up volumes,
I might be on thin ice translating what Dantal says about it because I lack context.
Yeah, I could immediately see it was totally a game of telephones. "Harangue" -> "Rede" and "Rede" -> "speech" were both totally reasonable translator decisions! But in the end, we get Isocrates giving Philip a speech, to which I was like, "?? I need to Google this and make sure I'm not crazy." Oh, the other thing is that I'm like...90?...percent sure that Isocrates, unlike the aforementioned orators, never met Philip in person. Which is not to say that there wasn't a genre of things called "speeches" that were never presented in person. (To what extent the published speeches by actual orators who did deliver something along the lines of what they wrote in the Assembly actually resemble what they said out loud is hugely up for debate).
But in any case, Isocrates was constantly writing, "Let's all stop killing each other and go kill some Persians instead! It'll be great, just like the olden, golden days of our ancestors! Panhellenic crusade fuck yeah!" and being ignored by like everyone. :P
Did not expect your knowledge to be quite this on point, though. ;)
Lol, yeah, some days it's like, "Dio Cassius, yeah, I've heard of him," and others, it's like, "Settle in while we talk about 4th century Athens." ;) I do fully intend to someday pick up where I left off when I got interrupted by THE MOST WONDERFUL EXPERIENCE OF MY LIFE. German and French first, though!
ETA: Oh, Maecenas, I should say a word about him for at least
So yeah, when you see Europeans refer to him later, it's often in a context of "And you, rich person X, you will be a Maecenas, honored throughout the ages for your part in sponsoring our nation's counterpart to the Latin golden age, by which I mean give me money and I'll say nice things about you!" Manteuffel casting himself as the patron who is also the truth-teller to power, and focusing on the Maecenas-Augustus relationship, instead of the Maecenas/Vergil or Maecenas/Horace relationship is...I'm not widely read enough to know if it's unusual per se, but I certainly haven't seen it as often.
And there ends my knowledge of Maecenas. (There's a strong divide between Roman and Greek in terms of whether something falls into the "I've heard of that!" or "Settle in" category, although it's not absolute.)
Lovely to get more context, also regarding the Greek pronunciation.
I have to admit that I have noooo idea about 18th century French pronunciation of Greek names. I could see from Dantal that if I was willing to stop and work my way through a page, I could be enlightened! But while I'm curious, time is short, and I'll come back to it when my German and/or French are faster.
But in general, I think it's reasonable for speakers of modern European languages to have different ideas about how to pronounce Greek names, because you're really just translating into your own language. There's *no* way you're going to produce anything like authentic Greek (which wasn't even a stress-based language!), and Greek accentuation patterns just *really* do not match English, French, or German ones, not even as much as Latin (which is not much).
Ancient Greek phonology: something I studied *way* back when, and traces of which still float around in my brain, though I'm much more likely to say something wrong, so I'll stop here.
Re: Dantal: Dog Name, Reading, and other Details (1784-86)
Date: 2021-03-06 10:03 pm (UTC)Part I
Part II (starts with Greek Literature I see)
Part III
Re: Dantal: Dog Name, Reading, and other Details (1784-86)
Date: 2021-03-06 10:12 pm (UTC)Thank you for checking,
Maecenas
Date: 2021-03-07 07:13 am (UTC)And yes, Manteuffel going for the Augustus and Maecenas relationship is unusual to my knowledge, too; the authors of the "Hervey and Fritz of Wales" essay when summarizing the "good" and "bad" favourite classical comparisons in Europe at that time point out that Hephaistion is usually the go-to-guy if you want to style yourself as the good favourite who is intensely close to his lord but also speaks truth to power when necessary, and is very competent, too. Of course, here two factors might have caused Manteuffel to go for Maecenas instead - Hephaistion is of the same age as Alexander (Maecenas was the same age like Augustus, too, but that's not relevant to the story) and a soldier, whereas Maecenas wasn't a soldier, that was Agrippa (of the two friends of Octavian's youth). And Manteuffel wasn't a soldier, either. Also? He's talking to a young man who approached him specifically for a cultural education originally, and to one who is always in need of money.
Which brngs me back to Maecenas. When I say he wasn't a soldier, I don't mean he wasn't into politics. On the contrary. He arranged Augustus' first marriage to Scribonia (which ended when Augustus married Livia, but not before resulting in poor Julia, his only daughter), and was responsible for negotiating the treasy of Brundisium which reconciled Octavian with Mark Antony (for some years, until, etc.), and was Augustus' regent in Rome while Augustus and Agrippa were off to fight Antony and Cleopatra at Actium. Also possible not irrelevant: Maecenas famously left Augustus all his money as well as his extensive gardens, which ended up being used by Nero as building ground for his Domus Aureus a few generation later.
Lastly: Maecenas was, among others, famously Horace's patron, and Manteuffel was really and genuinely into Horace; as mentioned in my write up, he translated all of Horace's poems for his own benefit (Latin to French, not Latin to German) in his old age. I don't know when Fritz started to discover Horace for himself (in French translation, of course), but Horace as far as I know was a later day favourite, and it might have been through Manteuffel at that.
Re: Maecenas
Date: 2021-03-07 04:09 pm (UTC)Maecenas: a reminder that Goethe in his late life poem for Carl August puns on Carl August's name and the traditional European Maecenas reference
Oh, right, I remember that now! Like
I don't know when Fritz started to discover Horace for himself (in French translation, of course), but Horace as far as I know was a later day favourite, and it might have been through Manteuffel at that.
The earliest Fritz-Horace connection I can think of off the top of my head is that ceiling Pesne painted at Rheinsberg, which, as a reminder to people who need it, had the names "Voltaire" and "Horace" painted on the pages of an open book. And that's after Fritz had gotten to know Manteuffel, so yes, could have been his influence at work there.
Re: Maecenas
Date: 2021-03-10 06:09 am (UTC)Huh, I like the idea that Fritz discovered Horace through Manteuffel.
Re: Dantal: Dog Name, Reading, and other Details (1784-86)
Date: 2021-03-10 06:07 am (UTC)