Büsching: following your lead, I looked it up in "Charakter" and lo, it's right after Büsching's account of the tale of suicidal (and kicked) Kammerhussar Deesen, aka the other handsome hussar who committed suicide over Fritz
I was very surprised to see you write this, because I distinctly remember saying that! But I don't see it in my write-up. I guess that fell victim to the internet difficulties I was having while composing this post--the tab got closed and reopened, and...oh, look, here's the draft I copy-pasted outside of DW before closing the tab, but didn't cross-check when reopening the tab to see if my draft matched the one DW had saved, and sure enough, the more complete draft says:
(Because I can sort-of read German, I can tell this is right around the anecdote of the servant who shot himself in the 1770s and Fritz expressed surprise that he'd have the courage to go through with it.)
Anyway, yes, it is! I saw that passage and immediately remarked on it, because I think that actually may be why I got this volume in the first place.
Dr. Zmmermann's book, not the "Fragments" but an earlier book by Zimmermannn's, "Über Friedrich den Großen und meine Unterredung mit ihm kurz vor seinem Tode"
Which is now in our library.
Caspar H: 300 Jahre Friedrich II. Schöngeist und wüste Tischsitten. Brandenburger Blätter, Historie, Natur, Gegenwart. Nr. 225, 10.08.2012.
Can't find it online, but you can ILL it via Stabi, so I added it to our sticky list in Rheinsberg.
ETA: could it be you have the wrong volumes? Because Büsching in his above quoted refutation says "volume 16", not 18, and my search machine doesn't find Glasow at all in the volume we now have.../ETA
*facepalm* Yes, I see what happened. The Glasow passage says "Collection 16," and I was like, "...Collection 16 of what?" and when I looked around in the book to find out what collection, the first citation, the one that names Unger, is the 18th volume. And apparently that's the one I fixated on when I went searching. WELL THEN.
The 16th volume is even harder to find than the 18th, alas. Stabi only goes up to 13, and Hathitrust only has 17-19. Google books has a record of it but not an e-copy. Argh. No luck. :/ The nearest physical library copy to Munich I could find in WorldCat was in Tübingen.
Now, what all of this says about Schöning's cedibilility as a source: on the one hand, definitely a member of the royal household, knew Fritz up close. On the other hand, if he was chamber hussar in 1786, a job for which I had previously assumed you needed to be relatively young and strong, I doubt he was already around in the Glasow years (1755-1757), which means his recounting of the Glasow affair is likely hearsay, derived from stories from older members of Fritz' staff.
I would tend to agree with this, but maybe felis will find him! The only Geheimer Rat Schöning I could find is too early: 1717-1787. But admittedly I do need to move on to Nicolai on 1730, so I did stop sooner than I often do when hunting people down.
Völker has to be punished extra hard, I guess, and so one gauntlet running becomes 24?
Maybe? It does sound like an exaggeration, though I don't know for sure. (Maybe there were short gauntlets you could run 24 times.)
Oh, no, wait, we're wrong! The heavily-footnoted and scholarly (and thanks to my scanning, searchable) Möbius volume on the Prussian army says:
The punishments meted out to disobedient soldiers could be draconic indeed. A Prussian soldier could be disciplined by running the gauntlet (twenty times through 200 men) for arguing with his superiors
Man, I would be in so much trouble. I always argue with my superiors!
But anyway. Wow. 20 times through 200 men! Maybe with mitigating factors such as mentioned by Wikipedia, like no edged weapons or allowing the culprit/victim to protect his head with his hands?
Oh, nice, I found the primary source! The authors cite the Prussian infantry reglement of 1743, page 437, and there it is. For arguing with your officers, on duty or off duty, with a rifle or without a rifle, hard punishment by the gauntlet. But especially if the guy has his rifle when he's arguing, he should be arrested on the spot and put 20 times through a gauntlet of 200 men the next day. That's my guess. Help on wann er mit(??) im Gewehr mit einem Wort raisonniret, please?
Both infantry and cavalry reglements now in the library, btw.
ETA: Oh, and please tell me you can see the image. *fingers crossed*
ETA2: And glancing at the second part, it looks to me like you get shot without pardon for opposition (refusing to follow orders, I assume?) or threatening your officers with a rifle.
And glancing at the second part, it looks to me like you get shot without pardon for opposition (refusing to follow orders, I assume?) or threatening your officers with a rifle.
This is actually incorporated in the entertainingly trashy Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria; it's how Saxon ingenue Pepita's first love dies (he spends the night with her, is chewed out by his superior officer the next day, puts his hand on his weapon, realises what he's done but too late, and that's it) and why she hates Fritz and later comes up with the kidnapping scheme against him.
"im Gewehr mit einem Wort raisoniert" - old fashioned German for "if he argues with a rifle in his hand".
Anyway - if that's the punishment simply for argueing, I'm now inclined to believe Völker was in for 24 times, though maybe indeed provided with a few days pause in between so he could survive it (as he evidently did).
felis identified Schöning for us, see above, with the help of Gustav Volz!
Not sure if this was directed at me (selenak seems to have no problem seeing your images in general) but yes I can see it! :D (Also the previous pic that I replied to, obviously, and I am also seeing some maps that you posted today :D )
Yay for the new Google Photos embedding html-generator site I found! It's the only way I've been able to generate a link that you can see. (A Google Photos link, as opposed to Google Drive, which is my fallback method that always seems to work.) Now, we still have to hope they're not ephemeral like most of the other links (I kind of suspect Selena checks more often than you and thus gets the images into her browser cache, whereas by the time you check, the link has expired), but so far so good!
Help on wann er mit(??) im Gewehr mit einem Wort raisonniret, please?
Waaaait, does that word I heavily question-marked say "nur"? I couldn't make sense of "mit", but if it's "nur", then "if he talks back even one single word with his rifle in hand," makes the whole sentence make sense.
Argh, if not for that one thing, I wouldn't have needed to ask for any help with the passage at all! (And one year ago, I couldn't even read a sentence of German.)
But anyway, thank you, that was the only word I was asking for help with.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
timeasmymeasure
Re: Glasow: the Nicolai version
Date: 2021-02-27 03:05 pm (UTC)I was very surprised to see you write this, because I distinctly remember saying that! But I don't see it in my write-up. I guess that fell victim to the internet difficulties I was having while composing this post--the tab got closed and reopened, and...oh, look, here's the draft I copy-pasted outside of DW before closing the tab, but didn't cross-check when reopening the tab to see if my draft matched the one DW had saved, and sure enough, the more complete draft says:
(Because I can sort-of read German, I can tell this is right around the anecdote of the servant who shot himself in the 1770s and Fritz expressed surprise that he'd have the courage to go through with it.)
Anyway, yes, it is! I saw that passage and immediately remarked on it, because I think that actually may be why I got this volume in the first place.
Dr. Zmmermann's book, not the "Fragments" but an earlier book by Zimmermannn's, "Über Friedrich den Großen und meine Unterredung mit ihm kurz vor seinem Tode"
Which is now in our library.
Caspar H: 300 Jahre Friedrich II. Schöngeist und wüste Tischsitten. Brandenburger Blätter, Historie, Natur, Gegenwart. Nr. 225, 10.08.2012.
Can't find it online, but you can ILL it via Stabi, so I added it to our sticky list in Rheinsberg.
ETA: could it be you have the wrong volumes? Because Büsching in his above quoted refutation says "volume 16", not 18, and my search machine doesn't find Glasow at all in the volume we now have.../ETA
*facepalm* Yes, I see what happened. The Glasow passage says "Collection 16," and I was like, "...Collection 16 of what?" and when I looked around in the book to find out what collection, the first citation, the one that names Unger, is the 18th volume. And apparently that's the one I fixated on when I went searching. WELL THEN.
The 16th volume is even harder to find than the 18th, alas. Stabi only goes up to 13, and Hathitrust only has 17-19. Google books has a record of it but not an e-copy. Argh. No luck. :/ The nearest physical library copy to Munich I could find in WorldCat was in Tübingen.
Now, what all of this says about Schöning's cedibilility as a source: on the one hand, definitely a member of the royal household, knew Fritz up close. On the other hand, if he was chamber hussar in 1786, a job for which I had previously assumed you needed to be relatively young and strong, I doubt he was already around in the Glasow years (1755-1757), which means his recounting of the Glasow affair is likely hearsay, derived from stories from older members of Fritz' staff.
I would tend to agree with this, but maybe
Völker has to be punished extra hard, I guess, and so one gauntlet running becomes 24?
Maybe? It does sound like an exaggeration, though I don't know for sure. (Maybe there were short gauntlets you could run 24 times.)
Oh, no, wait, we're wrong! The heavily-footnoted and scholarly (and thanks to my scanning, searchable) Möbius volume on the Prussian army says:
The punishments meted out to disobedient soldiers could be draconic indeed. A Prussian soldier could be disciplined by running the gauntlet (twenty times through 200 men) for arguing with his superiors
Man, I would be in so much trouble. I always argue with my superiors!
But anyway. Wow. 20 times through 200 men! Maybe with mitigating factors such as mentioned by Wikipedia, like no edged weapons or allowing the culprit/victim to protect his head with his hands?
Oh, nice, I found the primary source! The authors cite the Prussian infantry reglement of 1743, page 437, and there it is. For arguing with your officers, on duty or off duty, with a rifle or without a rifle, hard punishment by the gauntlet. But especially if the guy has his rifle when he's arguing, he should be arrested on the spot and put 20 times through a gauntlet of 200 men the next day. That's my guess. Help on wann er mit(??) im Gewehr mit einem Wort raisonniret, please?
Both infantry and cavalry reglements now in the library, btw.
ETA: Oh, and please tell me you can see the image. *fingers crossed*
ETA2: And glancing at the second part, it looks to me like you get shot without pardon for opposition (refusing to follow orders, I assume?) or threatening your officers with a rifle.
Re: Glasow: the Nicolai version
Date: 2021-02-27 04:51 pm (UTC)This is actually incorporated in the entertainingly trashy Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria; it's how Saxon ingenue Pepita's first love dies (he spends the night with her, is chewed out by his superior officer the next day, puts his hand on his weapon, realises what he's done but too late, and that's it) and why she hates Fritz and later comes up with the kidnapping scheme against him.
"im Gewehr mit einem Wort raisoniert" - old fashioned German for "if he argues with a rifle in his hand".
Anyway - if that's the punishment simply for argueing, I'm now inclined to believe Völker was in for 24 times, though maybe indeed provided with a few days pause in between so he could survive it (as he evidently did).
Re: Glasow: the Nicolai version
Date: 2021-02-27 05:06 pm (UTC)Thanks, that was my guess.
felis identified Schöning for us, see above, with the help of Gustav Volz!
Gah, I am so far behind. I should finish reading before replying, shouldn't I? But good for her, I look forward to getting to that part of my backlog!
Re: Glasow: the Nicolai version
Date: 2021-02-28 01:15 am (UTC)Re: Glasow: the Nicolai version
Date: 2021-02-28 01:19 am (UTC)Re: Glasow: the Nicolai version
Date: 2021-02-28 10:11 pm (UTC)Waaaait, does that word I heavily question-marked say "nur"? I couldn't make sense of "mit", but if it's "nur", then "if he talks back even one single word with his rifle in hand," makes the whole sentence make sense.
WHY, FONT. WHY.
Re: Glasow: the Nicolai version
Date: 2021-02-28 10:23 pm (UTC)Re: Glasow: the Nicolai version
Date: 2021-02-28 10:30 pm (UTC)Argh, if not for that one thing, I wouldn't have needed to ask for any help with the passage at all! (And one year ago, I couldn't even read a sentence of German.)
But anyway, thank you, that was the only word I was asking for help with.