Ohhhh, I saw that and didn't quite know how to take it, thank you! I should have remembered about the child mortality rate. I didn't know that survival chances weren't actually better if you were a royal, but I guess it makes sense that any advantages from e.g. better nutrition were probably more than offset by MORE BLEEDING. NOT THAT I AM BITTER.
Lol, yes, I was telling my wife about the child mortality rate being the same across classes, and since I had previously told her about Louis XV's governess barricading herself in the room with the kid, she said the same thing you did! We joked blackly that if your kid was about to survive measles on their own, you could afford to have them bled to death to keep up with the peasants!
Nutrition for rich children was better overall than for peasants, but not as much as you might think.
- There were a lot of rich neglected children, because the underpaid and abused servants raising them didn't always have a whole lot of motivation to keep them alive. A *lot* of rich kids, not just FW's, reported growing up hungry.
- There were really poor medical beliefs. Like if a baby wasn't thriving, the doctor might take them off milk and feed them weird powders (like dried snake) ground up in water.
- Since rich women weren't breastfeeding their own kids, they had a wet nurse to do that. Sometimes she lived in the countryside, and it took a couple days to get the kid to her. During that time, people believed it was very important that the kid not imprint on anyone else, so instead of letting them breastfeed with whatever lactating woman was in the vicinity, they would feed the kid sugar water.
- Middle-class/rich kids more likely to stay inside, less likely to get vitamin D from the sun, more likely to have rickets. (This may be offset by the sheer amount of child labor that went into poorer kids getting plenty of sun.)
Etc.
However, given the striking height differences between adults (and presumably children) of different classes, child nutrition must have been much better *on average* in affluent families. Treatment for infectious diseases, not so much.
Like if a baby wasn't thriving, the doctor might take them off milk and feed them weird powders (like dried snake) ground up in water.
Or: if you're Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, you get the idea in your head that milk isn't good for your first baby and it's going to be water and sugar all the way, and it takes your wife, your mother-in-law and your Dad writing from Salzburg to talk you out of this terrible idea.
(I was reminded of this again when listening to Brandauer recite some Mozart letters.)
Re: wetnurses for rich and noble women: remember, Stratemann provided us with the intel of how this was handled chez Hohenzollern, i.e. there was a selection of women applying for the job made by various court officials, and then SD decided between the final candidates. The one for Ferdinand (which is what Stratemann writes about) was a French Colonel's wife living in Berlin, so thankfully no trip to the countryside was necessary. (Voltaire: indeed not, since according to me, who never saw it at that time, Berlin under FW was a village anyway.) But it really was often the case, and I remember first coming across it in the Angelique novels by Anne Golon.
Geesh, Mozart, congratulations, you have managed to be more boneheaded than prevailing medical advice of the day, I didn't even realize that was possible!
Middle-class/rich kids more likely to stay inside, less likely to get vitamin D from the sun, more likely to have rickets.
Unless they were called FW and their response to compliments about their complexion was to cover their face with oil and loiter in the hot sun all day... ;)
During that time, people believed it was very important that the kid not imprint on anyone else, so instead of letting them breastfeed with whatever lactating woman was in the vicinity, they would feed the kid sugar water.
My first baby lost an alarming amount of weight because my colostrum and early milk wasn't nutritious enough for her (and despite a poster in my hospital room assuring me that it was good enough for the baby, which I'm still bitter about), at which point the doctor put her on formula for a couple of weeks. At which point I had more than enough milk, but I remember talking to my sister (a pediatrician) at the time being bitter about how I couldn't feed my own child and wondering how this worked before formula, at which point my sister was like, "Yeah, they died a lot, is what happened."
All that is to say that this just kind of viscerally upset me, like, you've probably got some sort of lactating woman around, including the own mom (which also! ouch! not breastfeeding when your breasts are totally primed for it is also painful and also I wonder how many of these women died from mastitis) and you're feeding this kid sugar water?? Poor kids :(
which also! ouch! not breastfeeding when your breasts are totally primed for it is also painful and also I wonder how many of these women died from mastitis
Wait, which women, the ones who were breastfeeding or the ones who weren't? Because I read your comment as the mothers who weren't, but that doesn't make a lot of sense.
and you're feeding this kid sugar water?? Poor kids :(
*facepalm* You'd think I'd know better after going through it a couple of times, but apparently I confused yeast infections (which can in fact happen with some frequency when you're not breastfeeding but your milk has still come in, because you're wet all the time until it dries up) with bacterial mastitis (the bacteria being introduced from the kid's mouth), the former of which is probably not actually going to kill you :P
Ahhh, okay! I was like--but mastitis is the thing you get from breastfeeding! I have to say, I was raised with the impression that breastfeeding is something you do if you can't afford formula, and while I've never heard anyone complain about not breastfeeding (I mean in terms of the symptoms--people complain about not being *able* to breastfeed), I've heard people complain a lot of about breastfeeding. It sounds massively uncomfortable and awful, and I decided early on I wanted no part in it, even if someday in the future I unexpectedly changed my mind about not wanting kids (spoiler: I didn't).
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Various questions from Mildred
Date: 2021-02-26 05:23 am (UTC)Re: Various questions from Mildred
Date: 2021-02-26 02:40 pm (UTC)Nutrition for rich children was better overall than for peasants, but not as much as you might think.
- There were a lot of rich neglected children, because the underpaid and abused servants raising them didn't always have a whole lot of motivation to keep them alive. A *lot* of rich kids, not just FW's, reported growing up hungry.
- There were really poor medical beliefs. Like if a baby wasn't thriving, the doctor might take them off milk and feed them weird powders (like dried snake) ground up in water.
- Since rich women weren't breastfeeding their own kids, they had a wet nurse to do that. Sometimes she lived in the countryside, and it took a couple days to get the kid to her. During that time, people believed it was very important that the kid not imprint on anyone else, so instead of letting them breastfeed with whatever lactating woman was in the vicinity, they would feed the kid sugar water.
- Middle-class/rich kids more likely to stay inside, less likely to get vitamin D from the sun, more likely to have rickets. (This may be offset by the sheer amount of child labor that went into poorer kids getting plenty of sun.)
Etc.
However, given the striking height differences between adults (and presumably children) of different classes, child nutrition must have been much better *on average* in affluent families. Treatment for infectious diseases, not so much.
Re: Various questions from Mildred
Date: 2021-02-26 06:47 pm (UTC)Or: if you're Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, you get the idea in your head that milk isn't good for your first baby and it's going to be water and sugar all the way, and it takes your wife, your mother-in-law and your Dad writing from Salzburg to talk you out of this terrible idea.
(I was reminded of this again when listening to Brandauer recite some Mozart letters.)
Re: wetnurses for rich and noble women: remember, Stratemann provided us with the intel of how this was handled chez Hohenzollern, i.e. there was a selection of women applying for the job made by various court officials, and then SD decided between the final candidates. The one for Ferdinand (which is what Stratemann writes about) was a French Colonel's wife living in Berlin, so thankfully no trip to the countryside was necessary. (Voltaire: indeed not, since according to me, who never saw it at that time, Berlin under FW was a village anyway.) But it really was often the case, and I remember first coming across it in the Angelique novels by Anne Golon.
Re: Various questions from Mildred
Date: 2021-02-26 09:57 pm (UTC)OMFG. Well, at least he got talked out of it!
And yep, I thought of Stratemann and how at least that didn't happen in this case! (Those kids had enough problems.)
Re: Various questions from Mildred
Date: 2021-02-28 02:30 am (UTC)Re: Various questions from Mildred
Date: 2021-02-26 07:01 pm (UTC)Unless they were called FW and their response to compliments about their complexion was to cover their face with oil and loiter in the hot sun all day... ;)
Re: Various questions from Mildred
Date: 2021-02-27 04:35 pm (UTC)Re: Various questions from Mildred
Date: 2021-02-28 02:29 am (UTC)My first baby lost an alarming amount of weight because my colostrum and early milk wasn't nutritious enough for her (and despite a poster in my hospital room assuring me that it was good enough for the baby, which I'm still bitter about), at which point the doctor put her on formula for a couple of weeks. At which point I had more than enough milk, but I remember talking to my sister (a pediatrician) at the time being bitter about how I couldn't feed my own child and wondering how this worked before formula, at which point my sister was like, "Yeah, they died a lot, is what happened."
All that is to say that this just kind of viscerally upset me, like, you've probably got some sort of lactating woman around, including the own mom (which also! ouch! not breastfeeding when your breasts are totally primed for it is also painful and also I wonder how many of these women died from mastitis) and you're feeding this kid sugar water?? Poor kids :(
Re: Various questions from Mildred
Date: 2021-02-28 12:52 pm (UTC)Wait, which women, the ones who were breastfeeding or the ones who weren't? Because I read your comment as the mothers who weren't, but that doesn't make a lot of sense.
and you're feeding this kid sugar water?? Poor kids :(
Right? Ugh. POOR EVERYBODY.
Re: Various questions from Mildred
Date: 2021-03-03 06:31 am (UTC)Re: Various questions from Mildred
Date: 2021-03-03 01:41 pm (UTC)