First of all, [personal profile] felis, fantastic discovery about SD being secretly in contact with her mother after all! I'm now mentally revising my picture entirely on that front.
Same! That was an amazing find.
We did know, though the usual (current) spelling is "Fieke
I've seen it spelled like 4 different ways, but that is the most common.
Ferdinand: not getting any respect even before he's born.
His destiny began early, I see.
This, I did know, as it's a fairly prominent sequence in the 1980s tv two parter Der Thronfolger, which was on Youtube a year ago (but no longer, alas, copyright struck, I guess). It also comes up in Der Vater, and, of course, in Wilhelmine's memoirs.
Yeah, I noticed Der Thronfolger had disappeared. But I was going to say, felis, you clearly need to read Wilhelmine's memoirs! If you're not up to a few hundred pages in French (are you? I realized I have no idea), I recommend the German edition which is available for free on Kindle. All the English versions I've been able to find are bowdlerized, and the second volume (the boring one) is additionally heavily cut for what seem to be length reasons.
Otoh, it was what weaned me off using translations when reading German!
He probably did, and yes, that's absolutely a heartbreaking quote. Bear in mind that while SD writes this in 1728, Stratemann doggedly describes a perfectly happy Prussian Royal Family with Disney Dad!
Meanwhile, Suhm is writing to August that everything is *terrible* and Fritz is begging for Saxon helping talking FW into letting him take an extended vacation, and Suhm is arguing, "We'd love to, but your father's never going to agree to let you go as long as he thinks you'll be happier there. You need to convince him you're happier here," and 16-yo Fritz is going, "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU I NEED TO GET OUT OF HERE NOOOOOOWWWWWW WHY WON'T ANYONE HELP MEEEEEEE!"
So, this is from the English version of the memoirs in the library. I checked it against the German version on my Kindle, and this passage doesn't appear to be doctored.
The British monarch arrived on the 8th, at seven at night. The king, the queen, and all the court, received him in the Palace yard, because the apartments are on the ground-floor. After he had embraced the king and the queen, I was presented to the English monarch. He embraced me, and, turning to the queen, he observed : “Your daughter is very tall for her age.”
(In Der Thronfolger, he says "plump for her age". I would like to know the French original word here.) He gave his hand to the queen, and conducted her to his apartment, where we all followed him. As soon as I entered the room, he took a wax-light, and examined me from head to foot : while I all the time remained immove able like a statute, and very much disconcerted. All this passed without his saying anything. After having thus reviewed me, he turned to my brother, whom he caressed much, and with whom he entertained himself for a long time. I availed myself of that opportunity to withdraw. The queen beckoned to me to follow her, and passed into an adjoining room, where the Englishmen and Germans of the king's retinue were presented to her. After having spoken with them for some time, she told the gentlemen, that she left me to converse with them; and ad dressing herself to the Englishmen: “Address my daughter in English,” said she ; “ you will perceive that she speaks it very well.”
I felt myself much less embarrassed when the queen was gone; and gaining a little confidence, I began to converse with those gentlemen. As I spoke their language as fluently as my native one, I got very well over it, and everyone appeared delighted with me.-- They praised me very much to the queen; and told her that I had the air of an English lady, and that I was calculated to be one, their sovereign. This was saying a great deal; for the English fancy themselves so much superior to other nations, that they think they pay a very great compliment when they say of a person, that he has the appearance of an Englishman. The manners of the king were those of a Spaniard; he was uncommonly grave, and did not speak a word to any one. He received Madame de Sonsfeld very coolly, and asked whether I was always so grave, and of a melancholy disposition? “Far from it,” replied she ; “but the respect which she has for your majesty deprives her of her usual cheerfulness.” He shook his head, but made no reply. The manner in which he had received me, and what I had just heard, inspired me with such fear, that I never could sum mon courage enough to speak to him. - At length we sat down to supper; but the English monarch continued mute. I know not whether he was right, or wrong; but I think he followed the proverb which says, “It is better to say nothing, than to talk nonsense.” He felt himself indisposed towards the end of the repast. The queen wished to persuade him to withdraw: many mutual compliments passed on the occasion; at last the queen threw her napkin on the table, and arose. The king of England began to totter, my father ran to support him : all rushed about him, but in vain: he fell upon his knees, his wig on one side, and his hat on the other. They gently laid him on the floor, where he remained senseless for a full hour. The care that was taken with him brought him at last gradually to his senses. Meanwhile the king and queen were in the utmost consternation, and many people thought that this attack was the forerunner of an apoplexy. They earnestly intreated him to withdraw; but he would not, and reconducted the queen to her apart ment. He was very ill all the night; which we only learned by private means. But it did not prevent his re-appearing on the following day. The remainder of his stay was passed in pleasures and festivities. Secret conferences daily took place between the Eng lish and Prussian ministers: the result of which was the ratification of the treaty of alliance, and the double marriage which had been broached at Hanover; which were signed on the twelfth of the same month. The English monarch left us the next day; and his parting with all his relations was as cold as their re ception had been. The king and queen of Prussia were to return him his visit at the hunting box near Hanover.
Hm, on the one hand, I'd translate it as "tall", too, at first thought, but on second, my half forgotten school French seems to tell me it can indeed be meant as a reference to her weight rather than her height. Either way, the context makes it clear it's a dissing.
Well, that fainting spell caught me by surprise, ha. And I didn't realize that Wilhelmine was fluent in English, I just knew that she and Fritz had had some lessons. But man, these marriage market examinations, ugh. SD mentions some of that in her letters, too. And all for things to turn out as they did...
Fainting spell: well, George I. died in 1727, so presumably he was already in less than peak condition. Re: Wilhelmine's fluency in English, I would be a bit sceptical if her memoirs were all we had on this, but there are contemporary reports from envoys and visitors backing her up which Oster quotes. Given that SD refers to her intended marriage and destiny as Queen of England for the first time when Wilhelmine is all of six months old (Oster quotes that letter as well) and Fritz didn't exist yet, and her entire education was aimed at this one goal (which SD could do because FW didn't much care what Wilhelmine learned as long as religious instructions were included, unlike Fritz), I can well believe it. (Wilhelmine also says in her memoirs that she came hate the sound "Duke of Gloucester" (i.e. future Fritz of Wales; future G2 was still Prince of Wales at this point) because her mother kept saying "the Duke of Gloucester wouldn't like these manners" or "this isn't good enough for the Duke of Gloucester" when she disapproved of something. And eventually realising it had all been for nothing, and worse, because trying to please her mother by clinging to this plan had greatly contributed to making her a target for FW must have been incredibly bitter.
(Meanwhile in England: Lord Hervey in his memoirs doesn't even mention Wilhelmine and only in one single sentence refers to the story that here may have been some talk about marrying Fritz of Wales to a Prussian princess or the other. To be fair, he generally regards German politics as a waste of time, but still, the whole marriage project was never as important to the Brits as it was to SD, and while there was some minor effort to make Fritz/Emily-Amalie happen because Fritz was the future King lasting into 1730, Wilhelmine/Fritz of Wales was dropped early on.)
Since Fritz wasn't actually supposed to reside in England (but in Hannover), I think his English lessons were more limited, and of course he wasn't urged to practice constantly, leaving aside FW was running him ragged with military education once he was older than 7.
and her entire education was aimed at this one goal (which SD could do because FW didn't much care what Wilhelmine learned as long as religious instructions were included, unlike Fritz), I can well believe it.
Oh wow -- that hadn't really occurred to me.
And eventually realising it had all been for nothing, and worse, because trying to please her mother by clinging to this plan had greatly contributed to making her a target for FW must have been incredibly bitter.
Aka when you can tell that she spent two decades of her life trying to win these unknown people over only for them to not find her good enough, and didn't help her or Fritz at all. (Also, aside from G1 that one time she didn't meet any of them, so I do think the sharpness is due to all those years trying to be good enough for the Hannover relations and never getting there.):
The king of England (G1) was a prince who valued himself on his sentiments; but, unfortunately, he had never applied to the enlightening of his mind. Many virtues, carried to-an-extreme, become vices. This was his case. He affected a firmness which degene rated into harshness, and a tranquillity which might be called indolence. His generosity extended only to his favourites and mistresses, by whom he suffered himself to be governed; the rest of mankind were excluded. Since his accession to the crown, his haughtiness had become insupportable. Two qua lities, however, his equity and justice, rendered him estimable. He was by no means an evil-disposed prince, but rather constant in his benevolence. His manners were cold; he spoke little, and listened only to puerilities.
The countess of Schulenburg (then duchess of Kendal and princess of Eberstein) (Katte's aunt Melusine) was his mistress, or rather his wife by the left hand. She was of that class of beings who are so very good that they are, so to say, good for nothing. She had neither vices nor virtues: she only studied to keep in favour, and to guard against being supplanted.
The princess of Wales (Caroline) had a powerful understand ing and great knowledge. She had read much, and was possessed of a particular capacity for public affairs. On her arrival in England, she gained the hearts of all : her manners were gracious; she was affable, but she had not the good fortune to retain the affections of the people: means were found to ascertain her disposition, which did not correspond to her exterior. She was imperious, false, and, ambitious. She has frequently been compared to Agrippina; like that empress, she might have exclaimed, “Let all perish, so I do but rule.” The prince, her consort (future G2), had not more genius than ricious to an unpardonable extreme.
you clearly need to read Wilhelmine's memoirs! If you're not up to a few hundred pages in French (are you?
Hee, they are on the list, somewhere. And no, sadly, I'm not! Enough school French for doublechecking and easy sentences, but not for extended reading. I'm glad that I've accidentally fallen into a fandom where all that half-forgotten French is getting a refresher course, though.
Enough school French for doublechecking and easy sentences, but not for extended reading.
Hee, join the club, then: that's where selenak, cahn, and I are! cahn and I are planning to beef ours up after German, though (she's already started a bit).
OOC, I haven't been able to tell: are you native in German, or is it your second (or more) language?
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
timeasmymeasure
Re: SD Letters discoveries
Date: 2021-02-21 06:09 pm (UTC)Same! That was an amazing find.
We did know, though the usual (current) spelling is "Fieke
I've seen it spelled like 4 different ways, but that is the most common.
Ferdinand: not getting any respect even before he's born.
His destiny began early, I see.
This, I did know, as it's a fairly prominent sequence in the 1980s tv two parter Der Thronfolger, which was on Youtube a year ago (but no longer, alas, copyright struck, I guess). It also comes up in Der Vater, and, of course, in Wilhelmine's memoirs.
Yeah, I noticed Der Thronfolger had disappeared. But I was going to say,
Otoh, it was what weaned me off using translations when reading German!
He probably did, and yes, that's absolutely a heartbreaking quote. Bear in mind that while SD writes this in 1728, Stratemann doggedly describes a perfectly happy Prussian Royal Family with Disney Dad!
Meanwhile, Suhm is writing to August that everything is *terrible* and Fritz is begging for Saxon helping talking FW into letting him take an extended vacation, and Suhm is arguing, "We'd love to, but your father's never going to agree to let you go as long as he thinks you'll be happier there. You need to convince him you're happier here," and 16-yo Fritz is going, "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU I NEED TO GET OUT OF HERE NOOOOOOWWWWWW WHY WON'T ANYONE HELP MEEEEEEE!"
</3
G1 state visit as per Wilhelmine
Date: 2021-02-21 06:19 pm (UTC)The British monarch arrived on the 8th, at seven at night. The king, the queen, and all the court, received him in the Palace yard, because the apartments are on the ground-floor. After he had embraced the king and the queen, I was presented to the English monarch. He embraced me, and, turning to the queen, he observed : “Your daughter is very tall for her age.”
(In Der Thronfolger, he says "plump for her age". I would like to know the French original word here.)
He gave his hand to the queen, and conducted her to his apartment, where we all followed him. As soon as I entered the room, he took a wax-light, and examined me from head to foot : while I all the time remained immove able like a statute, and very much disconcerted. All this passed without his saying anything. After having thus reviewed me, he turned to my brother, whom he caressed much, and with whom he entertained himself for a long time. I availed myself of that opportunity to withdraw. The queen beckoned to me to follow her, and passed into an adjoining room, where the Englishmen and Germans of the king's retinue were presented to her. After having spoken with them for some time, she told the gentlemen, that she left me to converse with them; and ad dressing herself to the Englishmen: “Address my daughter in English,” said she ; “ you will perceive that she speaks it very well.”
I felt myself much less embarrassed when the queen was gone; and gaining a little confidence, I began to converse with those gentlemen. As I spoke their language as fluently as my native one, I got very well over it, and everyone appeared delighted with me.-- They praised me very much to the queen; and told her that I had the air of an English lady, and that I was calculated to be one, their sovereign. This was saying a great deal; for the English fancy themselves so much superior to other nations, that they think they pay a very great compliment when they say of a person, that he has the appearance of an Englishman.
The manners of the king were those of a Spaniard; he was uncommonly grave, and did not speak a word to any one. He received Madame de Sonsfeld very coolly, and asked whether I was always so grave, and of a melancholy disposition?
“Far from it,” replied she ; “but the respect which she has for your majesty deprives her of her usual cheerfulness.”
He shook his head, but made no reply. The manner in which he had received me, and what I had just heard, inspired me with such fear, that I never could sum mon courage enough to speak to him. - At length we sat down to supper; but the English monarch continued mute. I know not whether he was right, or wrong; but I think he followed the proverb which says, “It is better to say nothing, than to talk nonsense.”
He felt himself indisposed towards the end of the repast. The queen wished to persuade him to withdraw: many mutual compliments passed on the occasion; at last the queen threw her napkin on the table, and arose. The king of England began to totter, my father ran to support him : all rushed about him, but in vain: he fell upon his knees, his wig on one side, and his hat on the other. They gently laid him on the floor, where he remained senseless for a full hour.
The care that was taken with him brought him at last gradually to his senses. Meanwhile the king and queen were in the utmost consternation, and many people thought that this attack was the forerunner of an apoplexy. They earnestly intreated him to withdraw; but he would not, and reconducted the queen to her apart ment. He was very ill all the night; which we only learned by private means. But it did not prevent his re-appearing on the following day. The remainder of his stay was passed in pleasures and festivities. Secret conferences daily took place between the Eng lish and Prussian ministers: the result of which was the ratification of the treaty of alliance, and the double marriage which had been broached at Hanover; which were signed on the twelfth of the same month. The English monarch left us the next day; and his parting with all his relations was as cold as their re ception had been. The king and queen of Prussia were to return him his visit at the hunting box near Hanover.
Re: G1 state visit as per Wilhelmine
Date: 2021-02-21 06:26 pm (UTC)He embraced me, and, turning to the queen, he observed : “Your daughter is very tall for her age.”
(In Der Thronfolger, he says "plump for her age". I would like to know the French original word here.)
Per Gutenberg:
votre fille est bien grande pour son âge.
Re: G1 state visit as per Wilhelmine
Date: 2021-02-22 07:39 am (UTC)Re: G1 state visit as per Wilhelmine
Date: 2021-02-21 09:51 pm (UTC)Re: G1 state visit as per Wilhelmine
Date: 2021-02-22 07:36 am (UTC)(Meanwhile in England: Lord Hervey in his memoirs doesn't even mention Wilhelmine and only in one single sentence refers to the story that here may have been some talk about marrying Fritz of Wales to a Prussian princess or the other. To be fair, he generally regards German politics as a waste of time, but still, the whole marriage project was never as important to the Brits as it was to SD, and while there was some minor effort to make Fritz/Emily-Amalie happen because Fritz was the future King lasting into 1730, Wilhelmine/Fritz of Wales was dropped early on.)
Since Fritz wasn't actually supposed to reside in England (but in Hannover), I think his English lessons were more limited, and of course he wasn't urged to practice constantly, leaving aside FW was running him ragged with military education once he was older than 7.
Re: G1 state visit as per Wilhelmine
Date: 2021-02-26 05:18 am (UTC)Oh wow -- that hadn't really occurred to me.
And eventually realising it had all been for nothing, and worse, because trying to please her mother by clinging to this plan had greatly contributed to making her a target for FW must have been incredibly bitter.
:( I feel so bad for Wilhelmine. (Yet again.)
Wilhelmine being snarky about the English relations
Date: 2021-02-21 06:27 pm (UTC)The king of England (G1) was a prince who valued himself on his sentiments; but, unfortunately, he had never applied to the enlightening of his mind. Many virtues, carried to-an-extreme, become vices. This was his case. He affected a firmness which degene rated into harshness, and a tranquillity which might be called indolence. His generosity extended only to his favourites and mistresses, by whom he suffered himself to be governed; the rest of mankind were excluded. Since his accession to the crown, his haughtiness had become insupportable. Two qua lities, however, his equity and justice, rendered him estimable. He was by no means an evil-disposed prince, but rather constant in his benevolence. His manners were cold; he spoke little, and listened only to puerilities.
The countess of Schulenburg (then duchess of Kendal and princess of Eberstein) (Katte's aunt Melusine) was his mistress, or rather his wife by the left hand. She was of that class of beings who are so very good that they are, so to say, good for nothing. She had neither vices nor virtues: she only studied to keep in favour, and to guard against being supplanted.
The princess of Wales (Caroline) had a powerful understand ing and great knowledge. She had read much, and was possessed of a particular capacity for public affairs. On her arrival in England, she gained the hearts of all : her manners were gracious; she was affable, but she had not the good fortune to retain the affections of the people: means were found to ascertain her disposition, which did not correspond to her exterior. She was imperious, false, and, ambitious. She has frequently been compared to Agrippina; like that empress, she might have exclaimed, “Let all perish, so I do but rule.”
The prince, her consort (future G2), had not more genius than ricious to an unpardonable extreme.
Re: Wilhelmine being snarky about the English relations
Date: 2021-02-26 05:20 am (UTC)Re: SD Letters discoveries
Date: 2021-02-21 09:40 pm (UTC)Hee, they are on the list, somewhere. And no, sadly, I'm not! Enough school French for doublechecking and easy sentences, but not for extended reading. I'm glad that I've accidentally fallen into a fandom where all that half-forgotten French is getting a refresher course, though.
Re: SD Letters discoveries
Date: 2021-02-21 10:30 pm (UTC)Hee, join the club, then: that's where
OOC, I haven't been able to tell: are you native in German, or is it your second (or more) language?
Re: SD Letters discoveries
Date: 2021-02-22 10:20 am (UTC)