Wow, you all have been busy overnight! Okay, addressing one subject at a time.
Wow, that really was an almost-duel! Now I can't help but wonder what would have happened if they'd actually gone through with it and one of them (*cough*presumably FW) had managed to kill the other!
For starters: who kills who really depends on the method of duelling. We tend to automatically think "pistols", but swords are still a viable alternative, see Hervey fighting his duel with swords, and of course the chances of both parties surviving generally is higher then. However, in the particular case of FW vs G2, swords would have been a death sentence (or at least a humiliating defeat sentence) for FW, given his weight and shape (even if not just sick). I'm not sure how heavy G2 ws in the late 1720s, but neither Hervey nor anyone else mentions constant illnesses, which FW definitely had. So presumably even FW would have had enough sense to go for pistols, at which they'd have been evenly matched. In which case it's 50/50, and either King could have died (or be severely wounded). As to what had happened, let's see.
G2 DIES
Does England declare war against Prussia? Nope. Enough witnesses around to testify it was an honorable duel. Also, new King Frederick I, aka former Fritz of Wales, more likely to send thank you bouqet to FW.
Do the English marriages happen for Fritz and Wilhelmine? Hell no, is my first thought, though on second thought SD could try to spin this as a reconciliation project to FW and try to guilt trip him into agreeing to push it. Otoh, the Brits were never keen on the match in the first place, and now they really have no reason.
Does the 1730 escape attempt therefore still happen? I think so, yes.
What about Hannover family dysfunction?: Well, in the late 20s it wasn't as bad yet as it would become, but Fritz of Wales would still have been long enough around his family to notice no one wanted him, everyone wanted little brother Billy the Butcher, and even if there's now a complete turnaround once he's on the throne, I doubt mother Caroline will ever gain much influence on him. Unless she's really really convincing. Otoh, late 20s is when he's just become friendly with Hervey and they're nearing Orestes/Pylades territory. Therefore, I guess Hervey gets his wish and becomes mentor to the new King, with a nice cabinet office to go with it, and Caroline can say goodbye to her Vice Chamberlain. (He did like and respect Caroline, but not enough to give up a shot at the top for her sake.)
FW DIES
Does Prussia declare war on England? No, see above. Honorable duel. Also secret thank you boquet from SD. And massive attempt to guilt trip G2 into offering his two kids to her two kids now.
Do the English marriages happen for Fritz and Wilhelmine?: Definitely can see that. Not least because MT's Dad Charles might send a "two of my Electors killing each other, WTF? Make sure the new kid on the block won't continue the feud against you, G2!" reprimand. As to whether these marriages will be happy, err. For Fritz, mayyyyyyybe better, because Emily/Amalie of England was brainy, well educated, sharp tongued. Otoh, given SD would have resented any sign of the new Queen getting more respect than she did, and Emily/Amalie would not have been nearly as shy as EC and would not have taken any humiliating silently... For Wilhelmine, see below.
What about Hannover family dysfunction? That stays the same. And because Fritz is the new King in/of Prussia, he's not around to support Wilhelmine. Which means that she still has to deal with in-laws that hate on her new husband, imply that she's faking her first pregnancy, and her husband trying to get her elswhere during labor.
Hmmmm. On the one hand, he did participate in one of the bloodiest battles of the century as a young man (Malplaquet), so this is neither the first time he sees death (in a non-execution context) or deals out death by his own hand. On the other, no matter how he rationalizes it, he's just killed someone just because he and the guy in question, a first cousin, brother-in-law and fellow monarch, couldn't stand each other, and there's no getting away from the fact that God really disapproves of this. *cue childhood lessons of Calvinist hell coming up again in vivid detail*
So I could see FW trying to appease God and spare himself hell by making extra efforts to be a good Christian husband and father. But I could also see him channelling that renewed fear of God's disapproval and hell by lashing out extra hard at anyone reminding him of G2, which evidently would include SD and his two oldest children. (Not just because of the English marriage project. I remember that more than one envoy writing a "hot or not" report on young Fritz remarks that looks-wise, he favours the Hannover side of the family, which given not just SD but SC in his genetic pool I can well believe.)
I could see him attempting to be an extra good Christian husband and father not being mutually exclusive with him being a nightmare to live in, because of his low ability to read or value emotional needs different from his: if he makes an extra effort, and he feels like they're not doing their part in being grateful and cooperative ("But I spared you ballet! I took you hunting with me! I gave you lots of alcohol!"), Vesuvius-like eruptions ensue.
Let's hope G2 kills FW.
Both of them killing each other is an option too! As the Katte brothers prove.
If G2 and FW kill each other, then the marriages might happen as a kind of "we need to end this feud for the sake of international politics" solution; Wilhelmine does become Queen of England and is spared having to go on a one hour carriage drive while in labor, because no matter how much Caroline might still dislike her oldest, she's going to alter her behavior if he's in charge and there won't be open accusations that his wife can't be pregnant, he's impotent, etc.
On the other hand, while Fritz might initially get along better with Emily/Amalie than with EC (because she doesn't symbolize submission, and she's fun to talk to), she's been raised by a Queen who was the true power in the kingdom, so long term wise, there's bound to be trouble once she makes it clear she's up for go-governing. Not to mention that she has a way better education than he was able to get for himself thanks to FW's everything, and that's probably going to smart.
On the third hand: this is a Fritz who has not gone through Küstrin and who gets to discover his sexuality and have lovers without being threatened. Because Emily/Amalie was also raised by a Queen who had no problem with her husband having mistresses, and who according to the morals of hte time does not expect her husband to be faithful to her anyway. So maybe having a boyfriend or several and no Katte trauma helps with the control issues?
So maybe having a boyfriend or several and no Katte trauma helps with the control issues?
Agreed. It doesn't undo all the past trauma, but it helps. What might help even more is if SD gets to be regent for a year or two, and Fritz lets her actually rule. (Thus unlearning his "power is a zero-sum game" lesson.) I mean that this would help with Fritz's future control issues, not with future SD/Amelia conflict.
On the other hand, while Fritz might initially get along better with Emily/Amalie than with EC (because she doesn't symbolize submission, and she's fun to talk to), she's been raised by a Queen who was the true power in the kingdom
Was she, though? G1 only died in 1727. If the duel was in 1728 or 1729 (remind me which one?), and the marriages take place shortly thereafter, she might have experienced a woman in power for a year or two, but for most of her entire life, the Queen was (well, divorced before she became queen) locked up in prison for thirty years.
Good point! I hadn't thought that through. Now, that still leaves Amelia having grown up in a family situation where Mom was the brains of the outfit and clever at managing Dad (very much unlike the FW/SD marriage), and the way this was known internationally can be seen from Fritz writing that infamous letter about promising to marry Amelia, none other, to Caroline, not G2; Wilhelmine, too, mentions Caroline as the person SD campaigned to impress once G1 had kicked the bucket. However, as long as Caroline and not yet G2 are Princess and Prince of Wales, it's simply not the same as when they're Queen and King, as they're both subject to G1's whims. And never mind her grandmother, Amelia would have been able to recall that time G1 and future G2 had that argument about Billy the Butcher's baptism and godfather that resulted in the biggest public scandal and all the children for a while being taken away from Caroline and future G2.
If the duel was in 1728 or 1729 (remind me which one?)
With some help from Lavisse, Koser reminds me that the events that Hervey reports as triggering this almost-duel, the fight between Prussians and Hanoverians over Prussian recruiters being imprisoned in Hanover over their over-enthusiastic acquisition of soldiers for the Prussian army, and the Hanoverians stole some hay that the Prussians mowed, took place in August 1729. And even authors (like Koser and Lavisse) who don't mention anything about single combat that I can see, claim that soldiers were mobilized and the two kings almost went to war, so that does sound like a plausible time for a duel.
If it was that late, then I'm guessing Fritz doesn't need a regent? Assuming the duel takes place in September, he turns 18 in just 4 months. What was the age for not needing a regent in Prussia, though? It was 13 in France and 17 in Sweden (but had been 24 until a hundred years ago--they changed it for Gustavus Adolphus); not sure about Prussia.
Ha, and here I thought Hervey was just making something up for comic relief when he mentioned the hay in addition to the soldiers! Kudos, Poirot.
Age for throne ascending: older than FW2 was at the battle of Kunersdorf at any rate, since Fritz was clear on Heinrich becoming regent at that point. Also I seem to recall that when he told Catt that AW dying has ruined his plans for retirement because now he’ll have to stick around till his nephew is off age, he says something like “I still have four/five more years in me” (I don’t remember whether it was four or five, alas). This is from the diary, so presumably he did say it.
Anyway, on the one hand, given that the Kingdom of Prussia was so very new - and in the end never faced a situation where the King was a minor - , I wonder whether they just left it vague, but then again I would be very surprised if micromanaging FW hadn’t had it covered by law even if his Dad did not.
Ha, and here I thought Hervey was just making something up for comic relief when he mentioned the hay in addition to the soldiers! Kudos, Poirot.
No, I remembered it from my Lavisse and Koser reading! Fortunately, Lavisse is searchable and gives the exact page number in Koser for his citation, and Koser (bless him) has the date.
Age for throne ascending: older than FW2 was at the battle of Kunersdorf at any rate
He would have been just shy of 15 (September 1744 - August 1759). So it's not 13, at any rate. Probably ~18? Which checks out, because what I remember was that if French Rottembourg had succeeded in getting FW overthrown sometime before he gave up in 1727, SD would have been regent for Fritz. Of course, I don't remember what my source for that is; it's a dim memory that might or might not go back to Lavisse (who at least did heavily rely on the French archives, as well as Koser).
And ha, I was thinking about Tiny Terror FW, and forgetting that he was sick, so. Also I laughed at Fritz of Wales' bouquet and even harder at SD's secret thank-you bouquet :D
Also, I got a kick out of Hervey being happy about how everything ended up, if G2 dies, lol.
IDK about Emily/Amalie and Fritz hitting it off, it's not like Heinrich and Mina did well at all. Of course, Heinrich wasn't King, so there's that... Wait! If Fritz is king, does he have to get married at all? Or does he let SD guilt him into it?
Well, Fritz at 16, 17, 18 (depending on when the duel takes place) hasn't, imo, decided yet that women are not for him. In addition to the Orzelska affair, there's whatever he thought he was doing with Doris Ritter. (Even Fritz at 19 is wooing Madame de Wreech with poetry.) Plus, of course, there's always the possibility that there's a kernel of truth in the later "prostitutes/loose living = STD" stories. He's still in the experimenting stage, as we would put it today, and the English marriage would emphatically be not something symbolizing submitting to Dad. It's something he and Wilhelmine put so much emotional effort, pain and tears into that SD might not have to guilt trip him at all because he'd see the achievement of it as a must for himself (as Mildred would say, cost/sunk facility). It's the ultimate proof he won over Dad instead of submission! Also, it's actually not a bad match in terms of rank and strategy, but a superb one. The number of Protestant princesses in the correct age available to him are few. (Which is why in rl Fritz and his brothers marry distinctly below rank.) It doesn't get better than an English princess. And he really wants to see Wilhelmine as Queen of England (in rl, he still brings that idea up along with himself/MT in the plan for Grumbkow that I recently quoted, and when she gets engaged to BayreuthFriedrich, he's wistful about how "your beautiful qualities could shine properly" only as Queen of England. (This desire is of course the result of both SD and Wilhelmine herself - despite Wilhelmine's later denial - being massively invested in it.) So, while Fritz at 28 undoubtedly would remain unmarried and let a theoretically unmarried Wilhelmine stay unmarried, Fritz at 16-18 does get married, I think.
Plus, of course, there's always the possibility that there's a kernel of truth in the later "prostitutes/loose living = STD" stories.
His 1737 letter to Duhan about trying to make up for lost time wasted on pleasures in his youth, combined with Wilhelmine's frustration at 16-yo Fritz's dissolute life after Duhan left, suggest that *something* happened when he was young. Though for all we know it was along the lines of walks in the park with Doris Ritter.
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timeasmymeasure
What if: FW vs G2 duel goes go through, ends lethally
Date: 2021-02-21 07:22 am (UTC)Wow, that really was an almost-duel! Now I can't help but wonder what would have happened if they'd actually gone through with it and one of them (*cough*presumably FW) had managed to kill the other!
For starters: who kills who really depends on the method of duelling. We tend to automatically think "pistols", but swords are still a viable alternative, see Hervey fighting his duel with swords, and of course the chances of both parties surviving generally is higher then. However, in the particular case of FW vs G2, swords would have been a death sentence (or at least a humiliating defeat sentence) for FW, given his weight and shape (even if not just sick). I'm not sure how heavy G2 ws in the late 1720s, but neither Hervey nor anyone else mentions constant illnesses, which FW definitely had. So presumably even FW would have had enough sense to go for pistols, at which they'd have been evenly matched. In which case it's 50/50, and either King could have died (or be severely wounded). As to what had happened, let's see.
G2 DIES
Does England declare war against Prussia? Nope. Enough witnesses around to testify it was an honorable duel. Also, new King Frederick I, aka former Fritz of Wales, more likely to send thank you bouqet to FW.
Do the English marriages happen for Fritz and Wilhelmine? Hell no, is my first thought, though on second thought SD could try to spin this as a reconciliation project to FW and try to guilt trip him into agreeing to push it. Otoh, the Brits were never keen on the match in the first place, and now they really have no reason.
Does the 1730 escape attempt therefore still happen? I think so, yes.
What about Hannover family dysfunction?: Well, in the late 20s it wasn't as bad yet as it would become, but Fritz of Wales would still have been long enough around his family to notice no one wanted him, everyone wanted little brother Billy the Butcher, and even if there's now a complete turnaround once he's on the throne, I doubt mother Caroline will ever gain much influence on him. Unless she's really really convincing. Otoh, late 20s is when he's just become friendly with Hervey and they're nearing Orestes/Pylades territory. Therefore, I guess Hervey gets his wish and becomes mentor to the new King, with a nice cabinet office to go with it, and Caroline can say goodbye to her Vice Chamberlain. (He did like and respect Caroline, but not enough to give up a shot at the top for her sake.)
FW DIES
Does Prussia declare war on England? No, see above. Honorable duel. Also secret thank you boquet from SD. And massive attempt to guilt trip G2 into offering his two kids to her two kids now.
Do the English marriages happen for Fritz and Wilhelmine?: Definitely can see that. Not least because MT's Dad Charles might send a "two of my Electors killing each other, WTF? Make sure the new kid on the block won't continue the feud against you, G2!" reprimand. As to whether these marriages will be happy, err. For Fritz, mayyyyyyybe better, because Emily/Amalie of England was brainy, well educated, sharp tongued. Otoh, given SD would have resented any sign of the new Queen getting more respect than she did, and Emily/Amalie would not have been nearly as shy as EC and would not have taken any humiliating silently... For Wilhelmine, see below.
What about Hannover family dysfunction? That stays the same. And because Fritz is the new King in/of Prussia, he's not around to support Wilhelmine. Which means that she still has to deal with in-laws that hate on her new husband, imply that she's faking her first pregnancy, and her husband trying to get her elswhere during labor.
Re: What if: FW vs G2 duel goes go through, ends lethally
Date: 2021-02-21 05:42 pm (UTC)What is FW like to live with as a husband/father after he's killed G2?
Re: What if: FW vs G2 duel goes go through, ends lethally
Date: 2021-02-22 07:56 am (UTC)So I could see FW trying to appease God and spare himself hell by making extra efforts to be a good Christian husband and father. But I could also see him channelling that renewed fear of God's disapproval and hell by lashing out extra hard at anyone reminding him of G2, which evidently would include SD and his two oldest children. (Not just because of the English marriage project. I remember that more than one envoy writing a "hot or not" report on young Fritz remarks that looks-wise, he favours the Hannover side of the family, which given not just SD but SC in his genetic pool I can well believe.)
Re: What if: FW vs G2 duel goes go through, ends lethally
Date: 2021-02-23 05:41 am (UTC)Re: What if: FW vs G2 duel goes go through, ends lethally
Date: 2021-02-23 06:53 am (UTC)Re: What if: FW vs G2 duel goes go through, ends lethally
Date: 2021-02-25 12:00 am (UTC)Let's hope G2 kills FW.
Both of them killing each other is an option too! As the Katte brothers prove.
Re: What if: FW vs G2 duel goes go through, ends lethally
Date: 2021-02-25 05:47 am (UTC)If G2 and FW kill each other, then the marriages might happen as a kind of "we need to end this feud for the sake of international politics" solution; Wilhelmine does become Queen of England and is spared having to go on a one hour carriage drive while in labor, because no matter how much Caroline might still dislike her oldest, she's going to alter her behavior if he's in charge and there won't be open accusations that his wife can't be pregnant, he's impotent, etc.
On the other hand, while Fritz might initially get along better with Emily/Amalie than with EC (because she doesn't symbolize submission, and she's fun to talk to), she's been raised by a Queen who was the true power in the kingdom, so long term wise, there's bound to be trouble once she makes it clear she's up for go-governing. Not to mention that she has a way better education than he was able to get for himself thanks to FW's everything, and that's probably going to smart.
On the third hand: this is a Fritz who has not gone through Küstrin and who gets to discover his sexuality and have lovers without being threatened. Because Emily/Amalie was also raised by a Queen who had no problem with her husband having mistresses, and who according to the morals of hte time does not expect her husband to be faithful to her anyway. So maybe having a boyfriend or several and no Katte trauma helps with the control issues?
Re: What if: FW vs G2 duel goes go through, ends lethally
Date: 2021-02-25 01:17 pm (UTC)Agreed. It doesn't undo all the past trauma, but it helps. What might help even more is if SD gets to be regent for a year or two, and Fritz lets her actually rule. (Thus unlearning his "power is a zero-sum game" lesson.) I mean that this would help with Fritz's future control issues, not with future SD/Amelia conflict.
On the other hand, while Fritz might initially get along better with Emily/Amalie than with EC (because she doesn't symbolize submission, and she's fun to talk to), she's been raised by a Queen who was the true power in the kingdom
Was she, though? G1 only died in 1727. If the duel was in 1728 or 1729 (remind me which one?), and the marriages take place shortly thereafter, she might have experienced a woman in power for a year or two, but for most of her entire life, the Queen was (well, divorced before she became queen) locked up in prison for thirty years.
Re: What if: FW vs G2 duel goes go through, ends lethally
Date: 2021-02-25 04:41 pm (UTC)Good point! I hadn't thought that through. Now, that still leaves Amelia having grown up in a family situation where Mom was the brains of the outfit and clever at managing Dad (very much unlike the FW/SD marriage), and the way this was known internationally can be seen from Fritz writing that infamous letter about promising to marry Amelia, none other, to Caroline, not G2; Wilhelmine, too, mentions Caroline as the person SD campaigned to impress once G1 had kicked the bucket. However, as long as Caroline and not yet G2 are Princess and Prince of Wales, it's simply not the same as when they're Queen and King, as they're both subject to G1's whims. And never mind her grandmother, Amelia would have been able to recall that time G1 and future G2 had that argument about Billy the Butcher's baptism and godfather that resulted in the biggest public scandal and all the children for a while being taken away from Caroline and future G2.
Re: What if: FW vs G2 duel goes go through, ends lethally
Date: 2021-02-26 02:16 pm (UTC)With some help from Lavisse, Koser reminds me that the events that Hervey reports as triggering this almost-duel, the fight between Prussians and Hanoverians over Prussian recruiters being imprisoned in Hanover over their over-enthusiastic acquisition of soldiers for the Prussian army, and the Hanoverians stole some hay that the Prussians mowed, took place in August 1729. And even authors (like Koser and Lavisse) who don't mention anything about single combat that I can see, claim that soldiers were mobilized and the two kings almost went to war, so that does sound like a plausible time for a duel.
If it was that late, then I'm guessing Fritz doesn't need a regent? Assuming the duel takes place in September, he turns 18 in just 4 months. What was the age for not needing a regent in Prussia, though? It was 13 in France and 17 in Sweden (but had been 24 until a hundred years ago--they changed it for Gustavus Adolphus); not sure about Prussia.
Re: What if: FW vs G2 duel goes go through, ends lethally
Date: 2021-02-26 05:49 pm (UTC)Age for throne ascending: older than FW2 was at the battle of Kunersdorf at any rate, since Fritz was clear on Heinrich becoming regent at that point. Also I seem to recall that when he told Catt that AW dying has ruined his plans for retirement because now he’ll have to stick around till his nephew is off age, he says something like “I still have four/five more years in me” (I don’t remember whether it was four or five, alas). This is from the diary, so presumably he did say it.
Anyway, on the one hand, given that the Kingdom of Prussia was so very new - and in the end never faced a situation where the King was a minor - , I wonder whether they just left it vague, but then again I would be very surprised if micromanaging FW hadn’t had it covered by law even if his Dad did not.
Re: What if: FW vs G2 duel goes go through, ends lethally
Date: 2021-02-27 04:31 pm (UTC)No, I remembered it from my Lavisse and Koser reading! Fortunately, Lavisse is searchable and gives the exact page number in Koser for his citation, and Koser (bless him) has the date.
Age for throne ascending: older than FW2 was at the battle of Kunersdorf at any rate
He would have been just shy of 15 (September 1744 - August 1759). So it's not 13, at any rate. Probably ~18? Which checks out, because what I remember was that if French Rottembourg had succeeded in getting FW overthrown sometime before he gave up in 1727, SD would have been regent for Fritz. Of course, I don't remember what my source for that is; it's a dim memory that might or might not go back to Lavisse (who at least did heavily rely on the French archives, as well as Koser).
Re: What if: FW vs G2 duel goes go through, ends lethally
Date: 2021-02-23 05:38 am (UTC)And ha, I was thinking about Tiny Terror FW, and forgetting that he was sick, so. Also I laughed at Fritz of Wales' bouquet and even harder at SD's secret thank-you bouquet :D
Also, I got a kick out of Hervey being happy about how everything ended up, if G2 dies, lol.
IDK about Emily/Amalie and Fritz hitting it off, it's not like Heinrich and Mina did well at all. Of course, Heinrich wasn't King, so there's that... Wait! If Fritz is king, does he have to get married at all? Or does he let SD guilt him into it?
Re: What if: FW vs G2 duel goes go through, ends lethally
Date: 2021-02-23 07:06 am (UTC)Re: What if: FW vs G2 duel goes go through, ends lethally
Date: 2021-02-24 01:06 am (UTC)(as Mildred would say, cost/sunk facility).
Sunk cost fallacy. :)
Plus, of course, there's always the possibility that there's a kernel of truth in the later "prostitutes/loose living = STD" stories.
His 1737 letter to Duhan about trying to make up for lost time wasted on pleasures in his youth, combined with Wilhelmine's frustration at 16-yo Fritz's dissolute life after Duhan left, suggest that *something* happened when he was young. Though for all we know it was along the lines of walks in the park with Doris Ritter.