If G2 and FW kill each other, then the marriages might happen as a kind of "we need to end this feud for the sake of international politics" solution; Wilhelmine does become Queen of England and is spared having to go on a one hour carriage drive while in labor, because no matter how much Caroline might still dislike her oldest, she's going to alter her behavior if he's in charge and there won't be open accusations that his wife can't be pregnant, he's impotent, etc.
On the other hand, while Fritz might initially get along better with Emily/Amalie than with EC (because she doesn't symbolize submission, and she's fun to talk to), she's been raised by a Queen who was the true power in the kingdom, so long term wise, there's bound to be trouble once she makes it clear she's up for go-governing. Not to mention that she has a way better education than he was able to get for himself thanks to FW's everything, and that's probably going to smart.
On the third hand: this is a Fritz who has not gone through Küstrin and who gets to discover his sexuality and have lovers without being threatened. Because Emily/Amalie was also raised by a Queen who had no problem with her husband having mistresses, and who according to the morals of hte time does not expect her husband to be faithful to her anyway. So maybe having a boyfriend or several and no Katte trauma helps with the control issues?
So maybe having a boyfriend or several and no Katte trauma helps with the control issues?
Agreed. It doesn't undo all the past trauma, but it helps. What might help even more is if SD gets to be regent for a year or two, and Fritz lets her actually rule. (Thus unlearning his "power is a zero-sum game" lesson.) I mean that this would help with Fritz's future control issues, not with future SD/Amelia conflict.
On the other hand, while Fritz might initially get along better with Emily/Amalie than with EC (because she doesn't symbolize submission, and she's fun to talk to), she's been raised by a Queen who was the true power in the kingdom
Was she, though? G1 only died in 1727. If the duel was in 1728 or 1729 (remind me which one?), and the marriages take place shortly thereafter, she might have experienced a woman in power for a year or two, but for most of her entire life, the Queen was (well, divorced before she became queen) locked up in prison for thirty years.
Good point! I hadn't thought that through. Now, that still leaves Amelia having grown up in a family situation where Mom was the brains of the outfit and clever at managing Dad (very much unlike the FW/SD marriage), and the way this was known internationally can be seen from Fritz writing that infamous letter about promising to marry Amelia, none other, to Caroline, not G2; Wilhelmine, too, mentions Caroline as the person SD campaigned to impress once G1 had kicked the bucket. However, as long as Caroline and not yet G2 are Princess and Prince of Wales, it's simply not the same as when they're Queen and King, as they're both subject to G1's whims. And never mind her grandmother, Amelia would have been able to recall that time G1 and future G2 had that argument about Billy the Butcher's baptism and godfather that resulted in the biggest public scandal and all the children for a while being taken away from Caroline and future G2.
If the duel was in 1728 or 1729 (remind me which one?)
With some help from Lavisse, Koser reminds me that the events that Hervey reports as triggering this almost-duel, the fight between Prussians and Hanoverians over Prussian recruiters being imprisoned in Hanover over their over-enthusiastic acquisition of soldiers for the Prussian army, and the Hanoverians stole some hay that the Prussians mowed, took place in August 1729. And even authors (like Koser and Lavisse) who don't mention anything about single combat that I can see, claim that soldiers were mobilized and the two kings almost went to war, so that does sound like a plausible time for a duel.
If it was that late, then I'm guessing Fritz doesn't need a regent? Assuming the duel takes place in September, he turns 18 in just 4 months. What was the age for not needing a regent in Prussia, though? It was 13 in France and 17 in Sweden (but had been 24 until a hundred years ago--they changed it for Gustavus Adolphus); not sure about Prussia.
Ha, and here I thought Hervey was just making something up for comic relief when he mentioned the hay in addition to the soldiers! Kudos, Poirot.
Age for throne ascending: older than FW2 was at the battle of Kunersdorf at any rate, since Fritz was clear on Heinrich becoming regent at that point. Also I seem to recall that when he told Catt that AW dying has ruined his plans for retirement because now he’ll have to stick around till his nephew is off age, he says something like “I still have four/five more years in me” (I don’t remember whether it was four or five, alas). This is from the diary, so presumably he did say it.
Anyway, on the one hand, given that the Kingdom of Prussia was so very new - and in the end never faced a situation where the King was a minor - , I wonder whether they just left it vague, but then again I would be very surprised if micromanaging FW hadn’t had it covered by law even if his Dad did not.
Ha, and here I thought Hervey was just making something up for comic relief when he mentioned the hay in addition to the soldiers! Kudos, Poirot.
No, I remembered it from my Lavisse and Koser reading! Fortunately, Lavisse is searchable and gives the exact page number in Koser for his citation, and Koser (bless him) has the date.
Age for throne ascending: older than FW2 was at the battle of Kunersdorf at any rate
He would have been just shy of 15 (September 1744 - August 1759). So it's not 13, at any rate. Probably ~18? Which checks out, because what I remember was that if French Rottembourg had succeeded in getting FW overthrown sometime before he gave up in 1727, SD would have been regent for Fritz. Of course, I don't remember what my source for that is; it's a dim memory that might or might not go back to Lavisse (who at least did heavily rely on the French archives, as well as Koser).
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timeasmymeasure
Re: What if: FW vs G2 duel goes go through, ends lethally
Date: 2021-02-25 05:47 am (UTC)If G2 and FW kill each other, then the marriages might happen as a kind of "we need to end this feud for the sake of international politics" solution; Wilhelmine does become Queen of England and is spared having to go on a one hour carriage drive while in labor, because no matter how much Caroline might still dislike her oldest, she's going to alter her behavior if he's in charge and there won't be open accusations that his wife can't be pregnant, he's impotent, etc.
On the other hand, while Fritz might initially get along better with Emily/Amalie than with EC (because she doesn't symbolize submission, and she's fun to talk to), she's been raised by a Queen who was the true power in the kingdom, so long term wise, there's bound to be trouble once she makes it clear she's up for go-governing. Not to mention that she has a way better education than he was able to get for himself thanks to FW's everything, and that's probably going to smart.
On the third hand: this is a Fritz who has not gone through Küstrin and who gets to discover his sexuality and have lovers without being threatened. Because Emily/Amalie was also raised by a Queen who had no problem with her husband having mistresses, and who according to the morals of hte time does not expect her husband to be faithful to her anyway. So maybe having a boyfriend or several and no Katte trauma helps with the control issues?
Re: What if: FW vs G2 duel goes go through, ends lethally
Date: 2021-02-25 01:17 pm (UTC)Agreed. It doesn't undo all the past trauma, but it helps. What might help even more is if SD gets to be regent for a year or two, and Fritz lets her actually rule. (Thus unlearning his "power is a zero-sum game" lesson.) I mean that this would help with Fritz's future control issues, not with future SD/Amelia conflict.
On the other hand, while Fritz might initially get along better with Emily/Amalie than with EC (because she doesn't symbolize submission, and she's fun to talk to), she's been raised by a Queen who was the true power in the kingdom
Was she, though? G1 only died in 1727. If the duel was in 1728 or 1729 (remind me which one?), and the marriages take place shortly thereafter, she might have experienced a woman in power for a year or two, but for most of her entire life, the Queen was (well, divorced before she became queen) locked up in prison for thirty years.
Re: What if: FW vs G2 duel goes go through, ends lethally
Date: 2021-02-25 04:41 pm (UTC)Good point! I hadn't thought that through. Now, that still leaves Amelia having grown up in a family situation where Mom was the brains of the outfit and clever at managing Dad (very much unlike the FW/SD marriage), and the way this was known internationally can be seen from Fritz writing that infamous letter about promising to marry Amelia, none other, to Caroline, not G2; Wilhelmine, too, mentions Caroline as the person SD campaigned to impress once G1 had kicked the bucket. However, as long as Caroline and not yet G2 are Princess and Prince of Wales, it's simply not the same as when they're Queen and King, as they're both subject to G1's whims. And never mind her grandmother, Amelia would have been able to recall that time G1 and future G2 had that argument about Billy the Butcher's baptism and godfather that resulted in the biggest public scandal and all the children for a while being taken away from Caroline and future G2.
Re: What if: FW vs G2 duel goes go through, ends lethally
Date: 2021-02-26 02:16 pm (UTC)With some help from Lavisse, Koser reminds me that the events that Hervey reports as triggering this almost-duel, the fight between Prussians and Hanoverians over Prussian recruiters being imprisoned in Hanover over their over-enthusiastic acquisition of soldiers for the Prussian army, and the Hanoverians stole some hay that the Prussians mowed, took place in August 1729. And even authors (like Koser and Lavisse) who don't mention anything about single combat that I can see, claim that soldiers were mobilized and the two kings almost went to war, so that does sound like a plausible time for a duel.
If it was that late, then I'm guessing Fritz doesn't need a regent? Assuming the duel takes place in September, he turns 18 in just 4 months. What was the age for not needing a regent in Prussia, though? It was 13 in France and 17 in Sweden (but had been 24 until a hundred years ago--they changed it for Gustavus Adolphus); not sure about Prussia.
Re: What if: FW vs G2 duel goes go through, ends lethally
Date: 2021-02-26 05:49 pm (UTC)Age for throne ascending: older than FW2 was at the battle of Kunersdorf at any rate, since Fritz was clear on Heinrich becoming regent at that point. Also I seem to recall that when he told Catt that AW dying has ruined his plans for retirement because now he’ll have to stick around till his nephew is off age, he says something like “I still have four/five more years in me” (I don’t remember whether it was four or five, alas). This is from the diary, so presumably he did say it.
Anyway, on the one hand, given that the Kingdom of Prussia was so very new - and in the end never faced a situation where the King was a minor - , I wonder whether they just left it vague, but then again I would be very surprised if micromanaging FW hadn’t had it covered by law even if his Dad did not.
Re: What if: FW vs G2 duel goes go through, ends lethally
Date: 2021-02-27 04:31 pm (UTC)No, I remembered it from my Lavisse and Koser reading! Fortunately, Lavisse is searchable and gives the exact page number in Koser for his citation, and Koser (bless him) has the date.
Age for throne ascending: older than FW2 was at the battle of Kunersdorf at any rate
He would have been just shy of 15 (September 1744 - August 1759). So it's not 13, at any rate. Probably ~18? Which checks out, because what I remember was that if French Rottembourg had succeeded in getting FW overthrown sometime before he gave up in 1727, SD would have been regent for Fritz. Of course, I don't remember what my source for that is; it's a dim memory that might or might not go back to Lavisse (who at least did heavily rely on the French archives, as well as Koser).