cahn | Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 21

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From:

cahn

ahahaha, yes. I guess I was unsure of how much of this was not understanding child psychology and how much of it was that he just had all these conflicting visceral wants (but I really want to be the highest authority too!!) and also was not even a little self-reflective.

"Children [don't] have different personalities" is a misconception I see around a lot, and in fact had to a certain degree myself before having kids and being around other people's kids a lot. It's certainly pretty natural to do the "...but I would have LOVED this when I was your age, what's your problem?!" and I got a lot of that when I was a kid, although of course a modern parent would try hard not to fall too hard into that fallacy (I've thought it to myself, to be honest! though hopefully I didn't give any external sign of it :) )

From:

selenak

We all act based on our own experiences, so it only makes sense to start out by trying to give a child what you yourself would have enjoyed/did enjoy as a child. However, if the child in question then responds negatively and likes other things more, a parent then is supposed to move on and work with what the child does like (provided it's not something like torturing hedgehogs, of course). And the FW type of parent never gets there, even without being an absolute monarch.

What keeps stunning me is the irony of FW, once he sees all the ways Fritz isn't like him and takes great offense at thta, keeps missing all the ways Fritz is. And I don't just mean the obvious - the terrier like take no prisoners stubbornness - or the negatives (the vengefulness, the capacity for humiliating and abusing people). I wasn't kidding when in my Stratemann writeup noting that FW on SD's sickbed as reported by Stratemann sounds remarkably like Fritz (to be specific, Fritz in the Fredersdorf letters) in his concern for her health, complete with "let me be your doctor".

Even post Küstrin, when FW most of the time sees Fritz as successfully remade in a proper crown prince image, even when uttering "There stands one who will avenge me!" declarations, I don't think he sees that. He thinks he has the new improved version of Fritz who won't ruin the kingdom - except on those occasions when he still thinks Fritz will ruin the kingdom, usually when he's in especially bad health - but I think this is in a "best that could be done under the circumstances" manner, not in a "huh, we're similar after all" manner.

Meanwhile, the "I have to be a mirror" quote

felis gave us from the Duhan correspondance is incredibly self aware on Fritz' part.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I think this is in a "best that could be done under the circumstances" manner, not in a "huh, we're similar after all" manner.

I agree, I don't think FW was ever able to see anything but superficialities in his children (in people in general, I suspect). I do wonder what he thought of Heinrich/how much he paid attention enough to perceive his personality and interests, given that Heinrich, who was only 14 when his father died and wasn't under the paternal microscope, was ready to die on the hill of "Dad was the WORST." I mean, part of that is Heinrich's inner terrier meeting Amalie's, but it is interesting.

Meanwhile, the "I have to be a mirror" quote felis gave us from the Duhan correspondance is incredibly self aware on Fritz' part.

While Fritz did have moments of incredible self-awareness, this particular observation strikes me as something that would have been impossible for him to miss. There are people who will instinctively mirror their surroundings, not be aware they're doing it, be really good at it, and be silently dying inside and wondering why. Then there are people who have to be beaten, locked up, and threatened with death to get them to mirror in the first place, they have to make heroic efforts to do it every single time, which lapse the moment they're alone, they're really bad at it, such that Dad knows damn well they're faking, and they're constantly hyper-aware that they're doing this thing that they not only hate, but that goes against the grain so much that they're barely capable of doing it at all.

This quote's been on my radar since before salon, from MacDonogh and at least one of the Fritzian documentaries I watched/skimmed, and has long formed part of my understanding of Fritzian psychology (and fortunately didn't have to be thrown away like most of the Catt material!).

Note also this part of the quote: unfortunately subjected to the sad need to conform to the bizarreness of the objects that present themselves. I read that as him saying that his playacting goes incredibly against the grain.

*hug for Fritz*