cahn | Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 21

Much slower because of world-events/Life-in-general/Yuletide/holidays, but still going!

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From:

selenak

Thank you so much for this! A few thoughts:

Charlotte smuggling Fritz/Duhan letters: this is fascinating, since Charlotte has as good a claim as any of the daughters to being FW's favourite. It varied, but Charlotte always bounced back to the No.1 spot. I've seen several biographers declare one reason for this is that Charlotte had the best sense of humor in the family and thus was able to take, say, his "another girl? We should drown them like kittens" type of statements as jokes, even reporting the arrival of her daughter Anna Amalie in the same manner. (Which Anna Amalie somehow found out later and did not take as a joke. Since she went on to become the Duchess of Weimar, the mother of Carl August and Goethe's patroness, her decision to raise her kid exactly NOT like her mother (and her mother's parents) had done was to have far reaching consequences.) While Charlotte's status as family clown is something Fritz mentions favourably now and then - as in the Mantteuffel/Seckendorff report in the mid 1730s (on the same occasion, he does say Charlotte's husband is his favourite brother-in-law, so much for you, BayreuthFriedrich) - I can't help but recall that the most prominent joke of hers we know, from Wilhelmine's memoirs, is that malicious crack about EC during the infamous 1732/1733 holidays, made in a context designed to gain SD's approval. So my impression was that Charlotte was one for playing it safe, punching downwards and submitting upwards. Which is why I'm intrigued she played courier for Fritz and Duhan. Of course, the personal risk for her isn't that great - she's not financially dependent on FW the way Wilhelmine still is, Braunschweig is a duchy with blood ties to the Habsburgs as well as the Hohenzollern, so if FW finds out, he's not able to harm her or her husband as a consequence - and since Fritz will be the next King, it could be a way to cement her standing with him.

the 1745 letters are clingy "write me more often!" ones, so much so that I was a bit surprised, until Fritz mentioned that Jordan and Keyserlingk had just died, and I remembered that he was also on the outs with Wilhelmine and Voltaire during that time.

Good point. I mean, he still had SD as a source of parental love and admiration, but while he undoubtedly loved her, I never had the impression he confided in her, either before or after ascending to the throne.

All the "you're my true father" insistence is fascinating. And maybe one reason why FW was so much harder on Duhan than on Finkenstein et al. He wasn't one to suffer competition lightly, anymore than his son would be. But he who teaches me, whose reason enlightens me,/He is my nurturer, and my only father. also almost literally matches something Voltaire's biographer Orieux when discussing Voltaire's 1746 (!) praise of his (Jesuit) school teachers: His father never had a right to such a proof of his gratitude - his true fathers were those who nourished his mind; the other - or others, since he declared three candidates for his biological father - not worth talking about!

(The phrasing is almost identical, but it's Orieux' phrasing, not Voltaire's. Orieux, by his bibliography, didn't even read a single Fritz biography - it's always "Frederic and Louis XV", "Frederic and Voltaire" etc. by French authors -, so I bet he wasn't familiar with Fritz' letter to Duhan. Must be coincidence, then.)

Fritz being plundered at Soor: Now I'm curious: Austrian Trenck mentions the war chest, Eichel, the clothing and the dogs, but I don't think he mentions the books, though I have to look it up again to be sure. In any event, given that Eichel & Biche were returned, how come the books weren't?

Duhan sounds like a kind, good man, and Fritz was lucky to have him.

From:

felis

I don't really have a clear picture of Charlotte, because my first impression was rather negative - Wilhelmine's POV in Mildred's fic, your info on Anna Amalia -, plus her position as FW's favourite (which of course doesn't have to speak against her, see AW), but then her relationship with Fritz at least seems to have been amicable. It's a pity that there are so few of her letters at Trier (even though by 1900, the state archive apparently had four volumes of her letters to Fritz alone). Given the "playing it safe vs. secret letters" context here, I find it rather endearing that in a letter to Fritz from July 1733, she describes herself as having a "scaredy cat" heart and therefore not wanting to say more (about what - her new marriage, family, Duhan, ... - is anyone's guess).

(Did she join the "let's chastise Wilhelmine for the MT meeting" club that Ulrike and SD formed? I don't remember.)

And maybe one reason why FW was so much harder on Duhan than on Finkenstein et al.

Possibly, if Fritz was obvious about his favouritism (which I think would be in character for teenage Fritz). My other thought was once again the predestination thing, see my reply to Mildred above.

re: the books at Soor - maybe they weren't actually stolen but destroyed? I seem to remember descriptions of destruction and fire.

From:

selenak

Re: Charlotte, in addition to these things, what biases me against her is that she wouldn't take her other daughter, Elisabeth, back when Fritz offered this as an alternative to imprisonment post scandal. I mean, if Fritz comes off better at handling the next generation and/or behaving towards a woman.... Seriously though: this was before Elisabeth was transfered to the relatively okay exile/banishment to Stettin, this was when she was at Küstrin. I mean, Küstrin. If your daughter is at Küstrin, with all that implies in your family history and your brother writes that she only repayed her husband's infedelity in kind, and you still respond with "I don't want that whore anywhere near me", sheesh.

Now, to be fair: Charlotte also had undoubted good qualities. For starters, she had her shair of the family brains, what with translating Wolff into French on her lonesome (Fritz needed Suhm for that), and she was independently minded enough to keep an open mind about German literature and be curious about same (not just by hiring Lessing as a librarian), to the point where famously her and Anna Amalie's visit to Fritz inspired him to publish "De La Literature Allemande" as a counter argument because both ladies seem to have positioned themselves fervently pro German writings. Also, even in Wilhelmine's angry description of Charlotte's behavior in 1732 she mentions Charlotte used to be her favourite sister back in the day, and Fritz generally sounds positive about her both in second hand testimony (i.e. those Austrian reports on "Junior") and in his letters.

Then again: Yes, as far as I recall, Charlotte joined the "how could you?" club re: the MT lunch. I also don't recall her doing anything during the year of AW's disgrace, either. And other than Ulrike, Charlotte really had the best, safest position of any of the sisters from which to take a stand. All of which leads me to the conclusion that she was probably good company on a social level, but that her instinct was to cater to the given authority on the top, and to discard you if you lost any political advantage, so as an ally, she was only of questionable value, hence my somewhat cynical speculation that her help for Fritz and Duhan came with the awareness that Fritz was the future King.

Predestination: could be, but yes, teenage Fritz wasn't subtle about whom he liked and didn't like. Given how much FW was attached to the idea of himself as a beloved father and how very insulted he was that his oldest children didn't give him the feeling that he was this, AND given FW's explicit instructions during the Küstrin year to give Fritz the idea everyone, including his mother, didn't love him anymore and had forgotten all about him, I'm going with paternal jealousy as a primary motive.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I bet he wasn't familiar with Fritz' letter to Duhan. Must be coincidence, then.

Wouldn't surprise me--I said much the same thing to and about my beloved mentor when I was a teenager, albeit less poetically. It's the kind of thing I think a number of people with intellectual priorities have independently come up with in the context of abusive parents.

In any event, given that Eichel & Biche were returned, how come the books weren't?

My guess is that the plunder had already made their way into the possession of individual Pandurs and were probably well on their way to being sold, while living beings were returned out of a sense of humanity. I don't recall ever reading anything about any of the many inanimate objects being returned. Plus, as

felis (and my fic) points out, there was a lot of chaos and fire.

Duhan sounds like a kind, good man, and Fritz was lucky to have him.

Hear, hear. He seems to be one of the many reasons Fritz came out of his abusive childhood as intact as he did.

From:

cahn

YAY ANNA AMALIA. I feel she is the real hero of this family for being the only one (as far as I know?) to actively decide to Parent Differently <3

So my impression was that Charlotte was one for playing it safe, punching downwards and submitting upwards. Which is why I'm intrigued she played courier for Fritz and Duhan. Of course, the personal risk for her isn't that great - she's not financially dependent on FW the way Wilhelmine still is, Braunschweig is a duchy with blood ties to the Habsburgs as well as the Hohenzollern, so if FW finds out, he's not able to harm her or her husband as a consequence - and since Fritz will be the next King, it could be a way to cement her standing with him.

That makes a lot of sense!