Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 20
Oct. 19th, 2020 10:42 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnYuletide signups so far:
3 requests for Frederician RPF, 2 offers
2 requests for Circle of Voltaire RPF, 3 offers !! :D :D
(I am so curious as to who the third person is!)
3 requests for Frederician RPF, 2 offers
2 requests for Circle of Voltaire RPF, 3 offers !! :D :D
(I am so curious as to who the third person is!)
Re: Krockow tidbits
Date: 2020-10-30 07:54 am (UTC)I hadn't realized this, but after East Prussia surrendered to Russia in the Seven Years' War and paid homage to Elizaveta, Fritz held a grudge and refused to go there ever again, for as long as he lived.
It's not just generals whom Fritz blames for not suicidally fighting till the end, clearly. I think Lehndorff - who is from East Prussia - mentions this somewhere, too, with a sigh.
Heinrich was at Mollwitz? I'd forgotten that.
Of all the books I've read, Krockow is the only one who claims this. Ziebura has him joining the army later, which would also fit with Fritz telling Catt (in the diary, not just in his memoirs) that his younger brothers when still kids begged him to let them come along on the merry invading. AW wasn't a kid anymore (just), so that means Heinrich and Ferdinand. There's also one of the very early preserved letters from Fritz to Heinrich saying "patience", which I think is dated post Mollwitz, not before. Mundt, too, quoting Easum the American 1940s biographer, says Heinrich wasn't yet allowed to participate in the first Silesian War (as opposed to AW, who joined Fritz and the army on January 22nd 1741). Heinrich according to Mundt did visit - with his governor and with Fritz' permission - Old Dessauer's campaign camp on May 2nd, but had to go back to Berlin, learn and be the recipient of more Fritzian "apply yourself!" letters thereafter. So I think Krockow is wrong here; everyone else thinks Heinrich only particpated in the second, not the first Silesian war.
Ghost stories: he's kidding, relax. The tone is definitely tongue-in-cheek in German.
Heinrich and music: something else Mundt mentioned that I hadn't seen before is this: More certain - than whether or not Heinrich was already a Francophile in FW's life time - are his musical knowledge and abilties. Heinrich was able around 1735/1736 to impromptu replace a concert master of the crown prince's music train who had fallen sick just before a performance at the royal table, and to conduct said performance for real, not just play-acting. How and by whom he had been taught these skills sadly can't be tracked down anymore.
Mundt's source citation for this story is: "Proebst, Herrmann: Die Brüder. Friedrich der Große, August Wilhelm, Heinrich und Ferdinand. Taten und Schicksale der Söhne des Soldatenkönigs, Berlin 1939, page 71." Note the date of publication, sigh. Anyway, I haven't seen this story before, and of course don't know which source Proebst claims, but it just begs more questions, because: "Royal table", as in FW's table? Surely not? If royal table as in the crown prince's table, how come Heinrich was with Big Brother to begin with? The date could be compatible with Unnamed Brother's visit in May 1736, though I have to say if ten years Heinrich conducted a musical performance chez Fritz on that occasion, I wonder why Fritz only mentioned the larder raiding. (Also why Fritz, most definitely the "let me play the lion, too" type, didn't replace the concert master himself.)
Amalie & suicide attempt & ensuing ugliness: this is part of the Trenck legend, - not, it has to be said, mentioned by Trenck himself in his memoirs - and I think first shows up in the original version of Thiebault's memoirs which I haven't read, as opposed to the 19th century changed edition. I'm not 100% sure, though. The historical foundation for this seems to be that Amalie in her last decade or so had severe eye trouble and, like much of her family, increasingly bad health, culminating in the stroke that meant she could hardly move her arms anymore in her last year of life. Thiebault, who only joined the court in the 1760s, wasn't around in the 1740s when Amalie supposedly committed this suicide attempt, and it's noticable no one else mentions it. Lehndorff notes down his share of sensational rumors about Amalie only to shoot them down - that she has illegitimate children, for example, or that she burns babies in her fireplace - but at no point mentions the Trenck saga, or a suicide attempt for any reason at all. Given all the love affairs and rumored love affairs of Prussian VIPs, male or female, he does note down, usually complete with "yes, I believe that rumor" or "no way!!!", I find it hard to believe he would have avoided commenting on this one, even if only to deny it.
Re: Krockow tidbits
Date: 2020-11-01 03:35 pm (UTC)Exactly. Krockow thinks this may have been an "excuse", because Fritz was bitching about how much he hated East Prussia back when he was Crown Prince (iirc), but I don't buy it. It's too consistent with his belief that if you don't suicidally fight until the end, you're failing him.
So I think Krockow is wrong here; everyone else thinks Heinrich only particpated in the second, not the first Silesian war.
Okay, thanks! That's what I thought--all those letters about waiting--but Krockow got me second guessing myself.
Ghost stories: he's kidding, relax. The tone is definitely tongue-in-cheek in German.
Okay, phew! Seriously, it would never have occurred to me that he might be serious if not for that one book on Culloden I read a few years ago where it did *not* seem to me like the author was being tongue-in-cheek about all the ghost stories. Also: pleased that my German has improved to the point where I can understand ghost stories, need to improve it further, to where I can detect tongue-in-cheek-ness. ;)
"Royal table", as in FW's table? Surely not? If royal table as in the crown prince's table, how come Heinrich was with Big Brother to begin with?
I would read that as the Crown Prince's table, but yes, it raises so many questions.
Amalie: Thanks for the background. If it is only Thiebault, he's the one who has EC claiming to have miscarried a child and also FW eager to have Fritz convert so he can become HRE, so in the absence of evidence (and some convincing absences of evidence that you point out), I will assume it's another unfounded, late rumor.
Concertmasters
Date: 2020-11-02 12:02 am (UTC)Huh, yeah, see my previous comment about wondering what "mediocre" means (always assuming this story is actually true, which you give good reasons to question). Ten years *is* pretty young to replace a concertmaster and conduct. My (well-trained but probably not intrinsically music-minded) ten-year-old would not be able to do it, nor would the other well-trained 10-year-old we know. Although I suspect my younger one might -- he is not a prodigy but is rather more musically-minded (and in particular likes play-acting conducting). Remind me in five years and I'll check ;)
As for why Fritz didn't do it himself, at least in my experience the concertmaster is usually a violinist, and probably involves reading some violin music as well as conducting (if I remember vaguely how this used to work), and making it a flute might be a little weird.
Oh, yeah, haha, this article says that in Baroque music the concertmaster usually led and played at the same time -- which a violinist can do (rather than a harpsichordist) because the violinist can move the instrument in time, but of course a flautist can do that too. The violinist has the extra advantage though of being able to conduct using the (relatively light) bow as a baton if things get out of hand, while using (the much heavier) flute as a baton would not be ideal :P
I was also charmed by the reference because it quotes Johann Joachim Quantz! "who said that concertmasters weren’t violinists 'by right,' but that appointing a violinist was preferable to most other musicians." ...I was unable to find a more detailed reference to Quantz, but now I'm just imagining this quote coming from Quantz trying to explain to Fritz why he couldn't always just be the concertmaster himself :D
Re: Concertmasters
Date: 2020-11-02 07:01 am (UTC)But in the era where nobility was expected to do some music, maybe it means "not able to be favorably compared with a virtuoso," which is a much higher bar.)
Especially since both Fritz and Heinrich had some true virtuoso musicians at their respective courts. Now if Heinrich had been actively bad or not pleasant to listen to, I think it would have been mentioned (he wasn't Nero, demanding praise, with lack of same getting punishment, and he didn't have the power to do this, either), and as, say, Gertrud Elisabeth Schmeling Mara does not mention Heinrich himself playing when she was at Rheinsberg, during the summer of Ulrike's visit, nor do any of the Russians mention him doing so when he was visiting Catherine in Russia, I'm assuming that at least in his middle age and old age, he reserved playing himself for the more intimate settings, not the big public occasions. Otoh, Heinrich as a lively music loving ten years old might not have had any inhibitions (especially if Dad wasn't around), no matter how good or bad his own playing skill was. But, like I said: I'm rserving judgment until I know what Proebst's source for this story was; that it doesn't show up in Ziebura, who went with a fine comb through all the childhood stuff for the princes, makes me sceptic.
Thank you for the article, that was very interesting to read.
Re: Krockow tidbits
Date: 2020-11-02 09:58 am (UTC)Re: Krockow tidbits
Date: 2020-11-02 12:34 pm (UTC)Ditto a lot of the ambassadors writing in the 1930s - for example, Stratemann giving the seating chart at Wilhelmine's wedding, where "Prince Heinrich" and "Prince Wilhelm" are the Schwedt cousins, while "our" Heinrich and AW are "third Royal Prince" and "second Royal Prince".
So you could be right in that maybe Proebst and Mundt got confused at the mention of a "Prince Heinrich", but Zibura spotted the error, and that's why the story isn't in her biography.
Re: Krockow tidbits
Date: 2020-11-02 02:44 pm (UTC)...Do we know if the Brandenburg-Schwedt guy had musical talent?