cahn | Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 20

Yuletide signups so far:
3 requests for Frederician RPF, 2 offers
2 requests for Circle of Voltaire RPF, 3 offers !! :D :D

(I am so curious as to who the third person is!)

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From:

mildred_of_midgard

I also am a tad confused about the price for jpgs, which seems to be different depending on whether is already a digital scan or not, and yet it doesn't say in the catalogue whether there is.

I'm guessing there isn't, since the catalogue says only about a third of the stocks are even listed, and the letter we want (371) isn't even in the catalogue. So I'm guessing we'd be paying the full price. Which I for one would consider it worth contributing to, for anatomical details of one of Fritz's homoerotic relationships!

This is fascinating for several reasons:

Omg, yes, it certainly is!

none of them, however, mention Glasow copied Fredersdorf's signet.

As Leining - the actual successor - writing proves.

Yes, these are wonderful details to add to our knowledge of this episode!

Also, this description of Leining's letter doesn't sound as if he's under the impression Fredersdorf resigned either in disgrace or otherwise not in favor.

That was exactly my reaction too.

What none of this has anything to do with, otoh, is the story Fahlenkamp provides re: Fredersdorf, which I've written and commented on earlier in this entry, strenghening my suspicion that one isn't contemporary at all but was added much, much later.

I agree, and I look forward to your future write-up of the 1944 book, and also my condolences in advance for having to read it.

From:

selenak

Which I for one would consider it worth contributing to, for anatomical details of one of Fritz's homoerotic relationships!

A laudable aim as such, but: have you considered you'd have to decypher the letter first? Because, see below. One of us would have to be up to decyphering Fritz' handwriting and his French, and it almost definitely won't be me.

Anyway, considering Germany now enters a November of lockdown because our pandemic numbers were rising like crazy, it's, literally, academic for now. Ditto re: the 1944 book.

That was exactly my reaction too.

IKR? And the guy actually taking over the key job (among the many ones Fredersdorf had) ought to know. Incidentally, if Glasow felt the need to forge Fredersdorf's signet, this also would argue that the claim that he had complete run of the Royal household and could do whatever he liked was exaggarated (otherwise he'd have helped himself to money from the Royal purse in his own right). (Which we thought before on account of Fritz' control issues; no way a young man in his 20s with no other proof of his loyalties than having gone with Fritz on the Dutch holidays would have been given that much uncontrolled access.)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

A laudable aim as such, but: have you considered you'd have to decypher the letter first? Because, see below. One of us would have to be up to decyphering Fritz' handwriting and his French, and it almost definitely won't be me.

Yes, I have considered it, and:

1) If you come over to my house and inspect my book collection, you'll see that I have no problem paying good money for things I can't read. :)

2) You may not have ambitions of learning to decipher 18th century texts, but if I make it through German and French and am still in this fandom, it's been on my radar for a while as a useful skill. Perhaps unrealistic, but see point (1): I'm an eternal optimist.

3) I have a possible ace up my sleeve: my friend our native-speaking French consultant does genealogy as a hobby, and if I'm not misremembering, this sometimes involves reading centuries-old handwriting.

And the guy actually taking over the key job (among the many ones Fredersdorf had) ought to know.

Exactly! And agreed re the money.

Also, while I'm not on board with solitary confinement and no trial, this does make it look like Glasow was at least guilty of *something*, does it not?

From:

selenak

It does indeed. Also, if Leining asks Fredersdorf specifically to check the bills for Glasow-related forgeries starting with September 1756, I note this coincides with the war. I.e.the army leaves Berlin in August to invade Saxony. At which point Glasow, who's with Fritz as his valet, moves out of Fredersdorf's orbit, since Fredersdorf stays at home. This to me suggests he might have thought he wouldn't get away with it as long as Fredersdorf was still around, but with the war going on, and Fredersdorf sick in Berlin, hundreds of miles away, he probably thought nobody would look at those bills more closely.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Oooh. That is some really excellent chronological detective work there.

Speaking of timing, if Fredersdorf is involved in Glasow's downfall, what do you think of that coinciding with Fredersdorf stepping down for health reasons?

Also, if Fredersdorf was suspicious of Glasow in the months leading up to April 1757, could that be related to why Lehndorff thinks he retired partly for reasons of jealousy? Maybe Fredersdorf was vocal about his suspicions and Fritz didn't listen?

From:

selenak

A repeat of our Georgij theories, you mean? Could be. Could also really just be the coincidence of timing. I mean, in any event, the following was clear in the spring and summer of 1756:

- there would be war
- as in the second Silesian war, Fredersdorf would/could not go with the King and would remain home
- unlike during the second Silesian War, Fredersdorf was in shape so bad that he could see the signs on the horizon that he couldn't do his job(s) anymore but needed successors. Now, in terms of purely valet duties, Glasow was, on the face of it, a good choice. Like Fredersdorf, he came from humble background and thus wasn't owing his advancement to anyone but the King, he wasn't a client/member of one of the noble families. He was good looking and evidently nice mannered (as testified not just by Fritz but by Kalckreuth) to get along with (if you weren't a fellow servant ranking below him). And since the journey to the Netherlands and back had made Fritz like him more, not less, he must have been a good on the road valet. (In peacetime, of course, but that was the only thing he could have been tested in at his age.)

Otoh, there was nothing to qualify Glasow for any non-valet duties. Since Leining doesn't take over as treasurer until April (when Fredersdorf officially resigns) but keeps Fredersdorf's secretary, I'm assuming Fredersdorf might have signalled he wanted to sign in all of his duties but Fritz deliberately delayed appointing successors for the non-valet ones because he didn't want to face the shape Fredersdorf was in and wanted to make him stay for as long as possible. Given how things had gone with the British embassay post, I would find it ic for him to let Fredersdorf's secretary Genze do the actual job while refusing to apppoint an official successor. Once April 2nd happened and Glasow got arrested, however, it was obvious that someone needed to be in charge of the clean-up as treasurer in addition to secretary G., and it couldn't be Fredersdorf anymore, because health. So Leining gets officially appointed.

That is, of course, just one possibility. Now I could believe Fredersdorf being a bit uneasy about Glasow, but the reason why I am hesitating to assume a similar scenario like we did for Georgij in 1741 - i.e. Fredersdorf being outright suspicious - is precisely that it's not 1741 anymore. I think if he voiced suspicions to Fritz in early 1756 with a life time of trust behind them and neither of them having to adjust to a new position, Fritz would not have dismissed them. There's also a world of difference between thinking "hm, this new kid on the block seems a bit too eager/just rubs me the wrong way" - which you could dismiss with "nah, that's probably just me getting old, and also I feel a bit possessive because valet was the first office Fritz ever gave me" - and "I do think this guy is Up To No Good".

Mind you: given that Carel the favored page went with Fritz into the war, as did other pages and servants Frederdorf knew, he might have told them to keep an eye on Glasow discreetly, which would provide yet another explanation as to why Glasow according to all versions was busted by a servant.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Given how things had gone with the British embassay post, I would find it ic for him to let Fredersdorf's secretary Genze do the actual job while refusing to apppoint an official successor. Once April 2nd happened and Glasow got arrested, however, it was obvious that someone needed to be in charge of the clean-up as treasurer in addition to secretary G., and it couldn't be Fredersdorf anymore, because health. So Leining gets officially appointed.

Hmm, this does make sense. I like this.

I think if he voiced suspicions to Fritz in early 1756 with a life time of trust behind them and neither of them having to adjust to a new position, Fritz would not have dismissed them.

Not out of hand, but he wouldn't necessarily have dismissed Glasow, either, if Fredersdorf didn't have hard evidence. And if Fredersdorf can think, "I'm just feeling possessive because it's hard to let go," so can Fritz.

I'm just wondering if there's some basis for Lehndorff thinking Fredersdorf was jealous of this guy. Of course, it could just be baseless rumors floating around.

given that Carel the favored page went with Fritz into the war, as did other pages and servants Frederdorf knew, he might have told them to keep an eye on Glasow discreetly, which would provide yet another explanation as to why Glasow according to all versions was busted by a servant.

Oooh, yes. I like this, too!

From:

prinzsorgenfrei

One of us would have to be up to decyphering Fritz' handwriting and his French, and it almost definitely won't be me.

I could possibly attempt to prove myself useful!
I mean, I'd probably be useless concerning the French part, but attempting to decipher old handwriting is something I'm quite interested in! I've only studied old roman, early medieval and 19th century writings so far (some of them for uni, some of them not), but I'd actually love to get better at reading 18th century stuff too!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Oh, that's AWESOME! I bet, with all our teamwork, we could piece this letter together!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Oh, you know, since the letters in Trier are both in German, maybe this letter will be in German too, and then we'll have it made!

Btw, if you want to start practicing on Fritz, Wilhelmine, and some other siblings, this site has both facsimiles and transcriptions for you.

Cunning plan:
1) You work on getting the hang of the handwriting.
2) We wait for lockdown to end and order the letter.
3) Profit!

I've only studied old roman, early medieval and 19th century writings

"Only." This is impressive!

From:

prinzsorgenfrei

I just checked some of them out and honestly, the handwriting is rather neat compared to other stuff I've had to decipher :D As long as there's not too much bleeding from the ink on the letter in question (like on the Dresden one, that one would have been quite tiresome to work through), I could probably manage to transcribe it. Unless Fritz only used his neater handwriting for Wilhelmine, but facsimiles of other stuff I've seen look similar enough.

This is impressive!
Thank you ^^' I've only transcribed a few of the older types of writing in a class I took in my first semester at uni (back in the good old days of actually BEING at uni) and learned a little bit about them, so I'm no expert by any means. Though I did really enjoy this class (and auxiliary sciences as a whole), so I'm glad it might be of use :D

Late 19th/early 20th century German cursive is something I'm a little better at (taught myself how to write in it some years ago for this exact purpose with the added bonus of being able to write whatever I want in class without people being able to read it), and I feel like that's helping me quite a bit with this :D