Frederick the Great, discussion post 16
Jul. 14th, 2020 09:12 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnWe have slowed down a lot, but are still (sporadically) going! And somehow filled up the last post while I wasn't looking!
...I was asked to start a new thread so that STDs could be discussed. Really! :D
...I was asked to start a new thread so that STDs could be discussed. Really! :D
Re: With You, There's a Heaven - Suhm
Date: 2020-08-10 11:12 am (UTC)He did, though not in this year (that I know of). I just looked up Volz' edition of their letters again, and in the year 1736, when Fritz is still in Berlin, we get on March 10th:
Fritz: Little Suhm is my ordinary companion and La Chetardie the extraordinary one. We philosophize at our heart's content. Now we've arrived at the metaphysics of the famous Wolff, undoubtedly the most perfect philosphical work we possess.
Wilhelmine writes back, still in March 1736: I am delighted you're spending your time so agreeably; I would love to join your sessions and learn philosophy in your school. I suspect little Diablotin - for this is how we used to call Suhm back in the day, didn't we? - needs his own philosophy dearly; for he isn't popular at court, and in a bad financial position. Accordingly, his mind will offer him comfort for the losses he suffered. (The rest of the letter is about Wolff, Descartes and the awful Schwedt cousins.)
If Fritz and Wilhelmine, neither of whom were tall, call him "little", I assume Suhm was Heinrich's size?
These are the only references to Suhm in the first Volz volume. I haven't counterchecked Trier, but I don't recall any others there, either. Then again, as one Wilhelmine biographer pointed out, the entirety of the letters of any of the siblings have never been published, always selections because they really wrote such a lot. Anyway, as far as can be seen, you're in the clear re: the first real Suhm and Fritz encounter, and since it's such a wonderful scene, it shall remain my headcanon forever.
Re: With You, There's a Heaven - Suhm
Date: 2020-08-11 03:11 am (UTC)Oh, man, I had missed that! Okay, there goes my headcanon for Suhm being at least a couple centimeters taller than Fritz. (*cough* On which the eyelid-kissing was based, ahem. Well, Fritz would totally tilt his head for comfort while crying, but the fix-it fic either needs to have an unhistorically tall Suhm, or some rephrasing of some lines.) Thanks for this, subdetective and royal reader
for he isn't popular at court
Clearly, he's too short for FW! (His not being in favor with FW is part of my in-universe reason for why Fritz, just barely out of disgrace himself, sneaks off to visit him. In subsequent years, my headcanon has them meeting at court. Like I said: totally self-indulgent of me to set the scene where Suhm could devote himself to taking care of Fritz for one evening.)
in a bad financial position
Yes, this is the year (iirc) that Fritz suggests he read Seneca's "On Indifference to Wealth." They then spend the rest of their correspondence making sure Fritz gets as much money as possible out of the Russian court, beginning in 1737. Fritz.
So, this means another Fritizan boyfriend that Wilhelmine liked!
Wilhelmine approves: Voltaire, Algarotti, Suhm.
Wilhelmine disapproves: Keith, Katte.
Wilhelmine silent so far: Fredersdorf.
little Diablotin - for this is how we used to call Suhm back in the day, didn't we?
Another unexplained nickname for Suhm! Also oddly like the nickname of the other major Saxon envoy, Manteuffel. She seems uncertain--I wonder if she's actually talking about Manteuffel? The problem is that, judging by the dates in Wikipedia for Manteuffel's presence in Berlin, "back in the day" would have to be either 1711-1717, for which Fritz would be way too young to remember and Wilhelmine almost, or 1733+, which doesn't seem far enough back in the day, nor was she really around for much of that. So maybe Suhm was Diablotin before he was Diaphanes!
La Chetardie the extraordinary one
Oh, speaking of envoys. In researching Fouqué1 for "How I Survived Christmas", I found a letter from Fritz to Fouqué in 1739. Now, Fouqué at the time was on bad terms with the Old Dessauer for not getting promotions as quickly as he'd like, so Fouqué actually left Prussian service for Denmark and only came back after Fritz became king and enticed him back with a promotion. In 1739, Fritz was writing him a letter of recommendation to Denmark, and taking some heat from Berlin for this "unpatriotic" act and defending himself.
But what's interesting to me is that in 1739, when Fouqué is entering Danish military service, Fritz asks him to find out how Løvenørn is doing. Løvenørn the former Danish envoy to Prussia, who allegedly tipped off Katte to his arrest, and whose compatriot von Johnn leaked the Katte pamphlet.
So Fritz still remembers Løvenørn fondly ten years later and is asking after him.
One thing I've discovered in the last year is that the envoys are where it's at in this fandom.
Anyway, as far as can be seen, you're in the clear re: the first real Suhm and Fritz encounter, and since it's such a wonderful scene, it shall remain my headcanon forever.
Aww, thank you. <3 I've been wondering what to make of the silence on the Suhm front between 1730 and 1736. Their correspondence on the Trier site only starts in 1736, and while it's possible that's only a selection, maybe they only really got in touch again during that Berlin visit, after which Fritz asked him to translate Wolff and their correspondence began after Fritz returned to Ruppin.
HOWEVER. I choose to believe they met as often as possible between 1732 and 1735 as well. :P
1: Oh, I also found his biography as written by his more famous grandson, the 19th century German author. The work seemed mostly military, but it had the candle anecdote and is probably our source on that. It's in in the library in case you want to skim and see if there's anything relevant to, say, your Seven Years' War interests, or anything cool that isn't in Wikipedia.
Re: With You, There's a Heaven - Suhm
Date: 2020-08-16 03:05 pm (UTC)Most def, as the kids say in The Wire. They all provide insightful and invaluable nuggests of information and characterisation. Even the odd ones out, like Charles William, mentor of young Poniatowski and enabler of his affair with Catherine, and mutual loather on sight with Fritz during his brief Berlin stint come across vividly.
But if we ever do "walked into a bar" type of fiction, then Mitchell, Valory, at least one of the Saxon envoys (Suhm and Manteuffel would both have different things to contribute, and I'm not discounting the Saxon envoy who finally delivered the smoking gun on Fredersdorf and Gigorijj the handsome husar), Dickens, the Danes (either one) or Poniatowski himself (also, among other things, a Saxon envoy, to the court of St. Petersburg) would get a lively conversation going. And of course... *drumroll*....Seckendorf (Imperial envoy).
Re: With You, There's a Heaven - Suhm
Date: 2020-08-17 02:10 am (UTC)Re: With You, There's a Heaven - Suhm
Date: 2020-08-18 12:03 pm (UTC)Valory to Rottembourg: Granted, I only met him once he was on the throne, but seriously? I shudder to think what he'd have been like with absolute power at age 14!
All the Ambassadors from FW's era except Seckendorf: But he's so sensitive, so smart, so abused! We want to adopt him and cherish him!
Seckendorf: ...yeah, well, no. Some cash, that's as far as I'm willing to go, and will I get any thanks for it? No. First he bitches about me in "History of the House of Brandenburg", and then he kidnaps me in my retirement. All just because I ensured he didn't get married to an English princess, which, given the rest of his life, really, what's the problem there?
All the Ambassadors from Fritz' era except Charles Williams: Okay, he is very charming when first you meet him, but then you better be up for verbal fencing, and good lord, that poetry.
Charles Williams (pre 1756): He sucks. Listen to me, young Stanislav: that man's an overrated asshole.
Charles Williams (1756): I'm entering the third stage of syphilis and also Prussia has just become our ally. I therefore turn my opinion on the King of Prussia around by 180 degrees and declare him a total genius and wonderful. I even kiss his portrait.
Stanislav Poniatowski: You're breaking my heart!
Ambassadors
Date: 2020-08-19 04:05 am (UTC)Lol Seckendorf!
...have we talked about Charles Williams before?? *goes to look* Oh, he has a middle name, go figure :) (Charles Williams is the name of one of the Inklings who wrote really bizarre poetry and novels which I love, so I think (?) I would have remembered if we'd talked about him using exactly that name. :) )
Re: Ambassadors
Date: 2020-08-19 04:35 am (UTC)Ambassadors
Date: 2020-08-19 04:59 am (UTC)German Rothenburg. But yes.
Valory to Rottembourg: Granted, I only met him once he was on the throne, but seriously? I shudder to think what he'd have been like with absolute power at age 14!
Less abused! Everyone wins! (Except maybe the French, who aren't going to get anything like the gratitude or dependence they expect, but hey, you can't win them all.)
All the Ambassadors from FW's era except Seckendorf: But he's so sensitive, so smart, so abused! We want to adopt him and cherish him!
Suhm: Adopt! Right, yes, that's what I want to do with him.
:P
(At least for the later stages of the FW era. I would never accuse Suhm of anything inappropriate. The earliest evidence we have of friendship is with the 16-yo, and romantic leanings the 24-yo.)
All just because I ensured he didn't get married to an English princess, which, given the rest of his life, really, what's the problem there?
Lol. But the escaping to Hanover, where FW is not!
Charles Williams (1756): I'm entering the third stage of syphilis and also Prussia has just become our ally. I therefore turn my opinion on the King of Prussia around by 180 degrees and declare him a total genius and wonderful. I even kiss his portrait.
Third stage of syphilis, LOL forever. The envoys keep it interesting!