Frederick the Great, discussion post 16

[cahn]

We have slowed down a lot, but are still (sporadically) going! And somehow filled up the last post while I wasn't looking!

...I was asked to start a new thread so that STDs could be discussed. Really! :D

Comments

Learning Frederick

[selenak]

Here I was, happily exhausted from a certain other project Mildred and Cahn know about, and also having managed my RMSE assignment. (Which, btw, also features one half of the pairing with a volatile temper and strong musical opinions. g*) I had a bit of free room before returning to the other project, and also some ideas about Fritz/Fredersdorf: The Early Days that didn't fit with any of the other story ideas I had which I've been meaning to save for next Yuletide. (To wit, "Fritz gets captured during the 7 Years War" AU and "Rokoko Adventures in Babysitting".) And I recalled iberiandoctor saying Fredersdorf was her favourite -dorf. Well, thought I, I can do short fic! I can!

I decided to make it an unofficial "five things" tale, a format I'm comfortable with and did in several fandoms, and divide it by theme to cover several aspects of Fredersdorf's new life with Fritz and his moving, as Mildred put it in a comment, from the valet role into the Pepper Potts role with Fritz. Because clearly, one of the big things Fredesdorf would have to discover was that the Hohenzollern are all bonkers, the 1732/33 winter holidays had to be included, which means they became the most written about event of the exchange. :) (Totally worth it, though.) Otoh, it was also clear from the start that this would be a relatively angst-light story. (Where I could also include my theory as to why Fredersdorf either didn't learn French or at least pretended not to speak it.) T

hough because of the difference in rank, and Fritz still building himself back together, I needed something that would push Fredersdorf to dare making an overture, and the combination of Suhm and then, in the last section, nightmare-having Fritz did nicely.

Re: Learning Frederick

[mildred_of_midgard]

The Early Days that didn't fit with any of the other story ideas I had which I've been meaning to save for next Yuletide. (To wit, "Fritz gets captured during the 7 Years War" AU and "Rokoko Adventures in Babysitting".)

Oh, nice! I was hoping Fritz-capture was still on your list, but I didn't realize/remember babysitting was in the works for Yuletide! If either or both of these show up in the collection, I will have NO idea who wrote them, just like every other time one of your fics appears. :D

I needed something that would push Fredersdorf to dare making an overture, and the combination of Suhm and then, in the last section, nightmare-having Fritz did nicely.

The parallels still delight me. Not only do you and I have Suhm pushing Fredersdorf to make the overture and cahn has Fouqué, but you and cahn have Fritz's nightmares (which she apparently forgot were canonical!), and you and cahn have strikingly similar lines in your respective final scenes that I was goggling at during my liveblog at her:

“I just. I need --” And he stopped there, as if any other words would be too much for him.

„I need…“ Friedrich begins, teeth chattering as if it was cold right now, not downright sweltering. „I need…“ He doesn’t finish the sentence.

Clearly, this is how it happened! Fritz said, "I need--" and Fredersdorf figured it out and made the first move.

Btw, for all that I'm sure Fritz made the first move with Peter Keith and Katte, by the time Fredersdorf came along, my headcanon is that he absolutely needed someone else to make the first move. Since Fredersdorf is in such a constrained position, I think it makes sense that we all three gave him a catalyst to go through with it!

Speaking of parallels, I chuckled over the way both you and I included Fritz's tastes in spicy food. I think it's great that your Fredersdorf, just getting to know Fritz, tries his food and has an OMGWTF moment (lesson learned!), and my Suhm, who's known him forever, is like, "No, no, it's all yours," with some excuse about his touchy stomach. :P

Oh, and another one I liveblogged, a parallel between you and cahn:

Now on the one hand, Fredersdorf should be glad that the Prince has a good friend drawn to him only by affection, who, since he’s not a Prussian citizen, isn’t in danger of being killed by the Prince’s father any time soon. But on the other, well, when Suhm is around, Friedrich spends a lot of time with him. An extraordinary amount of time, while Fredersdorf can only talk with him in haste doing his valet duties.

and

Friedrich sighed a little and put his head on Fouqué’s shoulder.

I had all kinds of complicated feelings about this, which I squashed down, as they were of course completely irrelevant to the situation. I was mostly happy that there was something positive in Prince Friedrich’s life, of course.

Imagine if I hadn't advocated for Fouqué and that still said Suhm. :D

Re: Learning Frederick

[selenak]

Since Fredersdorf is in such a constrained position, I think it makes sense that we all three gave him a catalyst to go through with it!

It so does. If Fredersdorf misreads Fritz in this regard, he's got far more to fear as a consequence than if, say, Peter Keith the offspring of a noble family makes the same mistake. (Though I agree that Fritz made the first step with Peter, but you know what I mean.) "I need..." is clearly how it happened.

...though Cahn and I also believe in seeing other men close to his prince helped. I mean, we're talking about the man later suspected of driving handsome husars to suicide. ;)

If a potential new reader reads our stories one after another, they're definitely going to believe Fritz and Fredersdorf becoming an item in the winter of 32 is canon. As they should. :)

Re: Learning Frederick

[mildred_of_midgard]

I mean, we're talking about the man later suspected of driving handsome husars to suicide. ;)

Ha! That's next in the queue after Rokoko babysitting, right? Rheinsberg would make a great Yuletide fic, and handsome hussar rivalries great RMSE 2021 material! We'll just proceed sequentially through the Fritz/Fredersdorf relationship. :)

If a potential new reader reads our stories one after another, they're definitely going to believe Fritz and Fredersdorf becoming an item in the winter of 32 is canon. As they should. :)

That's hilarious. All the more so because it's not my headcanon or cahn's. Mine is that Fredersdorf never found that catalyst, and they became very close, but in a way where he shows his love by changing midnight coffee orders to hot chocolate, not by initiating physical touch.

But I agree this should (and will!) be perceived as canonical, and I reserve the right to change my headcanon. ;)

Re: Learning Frederick

[cahn]

I was freaking out that we had the same line! Clearly we share alllllll the tropes :D

Re: Learning Frederick

[mildred_of_midgard]

...though Cahn and I also believe in seeing other men close to his prince helped. I mean, we're talking about the man later suspected of driving handsome husars to suicide. ;)

You know what just occurred to me? I have this abandoned (but I still think about it from time to time) WIP where Katte gets life imprisonment, and Fritz's first act as king is to pardon him and summon him to his side and never ever let him go.

We've speculated about how Katte might react to Fritz after 10 years, but...how is Fredersdorf going to react to the appearance of the former lover who gave ten years of his life out of loyalty to Fritz, and is a nobleman from a prominent family? Right in that period of 1740-1741 when Fredersdorf is feeling most insecure!

Re: Learning Frederick

[selenak]

Ohhhhh, good question. On the one hand, we don't know that he had a problem with, say, Algarotti, and might have been able to file this under "the two of us cover different parts of Fritz' life". (Whereas handsome husars drafted to personal service might be competetion.) Otoh, this is Katte, and I've recently written a story where Fredersdorf does go "if he wants to kiss anyone, it's surely Katte", and as we've said this is the year where everyone's relationships with Fritz shift and have to be reestablished, and Fredersdorf is most insecure. As opposed to some stranger named or not named Grigorij, he wouldn't be able to tell himself Katte is bad for Fritz and/or suspicious.

...at the very least he'd have a very angsty time of it, I think, wondering whether Fritz is going to treat him now as valet only and wants him to step back into the servant role, and/or whether Zernikow is meant as a gracious pay off the way mistresses to Kings are usually paid off when their time is over.

(Maybe AU Fredersdorf has a drink with equally returning Peter?)

Now, if the whole husar story wasn't idle gossip the Saxon ambassador heard, Fredersdorf in rl was willing to fight for Fritz, but again, that wasn't with someone who had an undeniable and gigantic claim to his affection. Hmmm. Maybe... well, we don't know how ten years in prison would have affected Katte, of course. But before going to prison, he wasn't exactly good at money management. So maybe Fredersdorf while being at his most angsty ready to step back and become a private land owner in Zernikow thinks, but wait, what if Katte, no matter how loving and loyal, still is no good at keeping secrets or organisation or money, so clearly Fritz still needs me to keep an eye on things, and who knows, once Katte isn't a loved and missed martyr in prison anymore but someone he sees every day and who will inevitably have good and bad hours, it'll turn out he still needs me emotionally as well and Katte alone won't do, because we've already passed that test of time, whereas Katte and he had at most a year?

...and then the oldest of the Katte half brothers, figuring this is clearly the opportunity to get loaded, comes to court after Hans Heinrich dies (still at the same time) and tries to exploit being the favorite's brother for all that's worth, at which point Consiglieri Mike springs into action!

Re: Learning Frederick

[mildred_of_midgard]

Sounds very plausible! And now that I have the gossip on the inheritance, I'm totally thinking about ways that would fit into my AUs.

So can Hans Heinrich just write a will and say everything goes to the younger son and that has legal validity?

Oh, that reminds me:

The duel took place not too long after he'd reached his majority

What's the legal majority in our period? The younger brother was 23 when the duel took place. Though I'd like to think several years of non-violent measures were attempted first, so I guess that makes sense.

Also, remind me what our evidence is for Hans Hermann not being great at money management? I still haven't read Kloosterhuis, and Google translate is not really feasible with all the footnotes, so I'm having to wait until I'm up to the job myself.

Consiglieri Mike

Consigliere Mike is still the best. <3

Re: Learning Frederick

[selenak]

What's the legal majority in our period?

I would have to check to be sure, but I do know it was 21 for the longest time. (Not for Kings, though. They got to rule earlier.)

Also, remind me what our evidence is for Hans Hermann not being great at money management?

I'd have to reread Klosterhuis, but I dimly recall something about having debts as a student. (Though that's par the course for noble students.) I guess aiding and abetting Fritz' debt-making doesn't really count, because what's one to do if the King is so miserly towards his son, etc., but: given Grandpa Wartensleben was a key influence on his life, and Grandpa Wartensleben, unlike Dad, was a F1 period big spending nobleman...

So can Hans Heinrich just write a will and say everything goes to the younger son and that has legal validity?

He didn't leave everything to him (aside from the older son, there were also the daughters! and the wife!), but apparantly he wanted him to be the main heir and get Wust. So I guess primogeniture wasn't a must for Prussian nobility. Son #2 wasn't disinherited, he just wasn't to be the designed successor.

There's one bit about Prussian inheritances I do know a bit about, and that's because of Wilhelmine. The case isn't exactly comparable, but: think of the three Marwitz sisters Wilhelmine took with her when she left Prussia. She had to promise FW none of the three would marry a non-Prussian. (We talked about neither FW nor Fritz wanting the nobility to marry outside the country because of potentially foreigners having legal claims to Prussian territory.) As Wilhelmine later during the big Marwitz affair (female version) pointed out, she kept her word while FW was still alive. Then the youngest Marwitz sister ran off to get married. Her father was pissed, and wanted his other daughters back. The middle Marwitz sister did go back and obediently got married to a Podewils. (I.e. Prussian family, several memmbers in Fritz' service.) The oldest remained and had her affair with the Margrave as we know, leading to marriage with an Austrian and one more step in the big Fritz/Wilhelmine crisis of the 1740s. Now, what Dad Marwitz could do was leaving most of the money only to the obedient daughter, but what he couldn't do was disinhereting the two disobedient ones altogether. They still had claim to a "Pflichtteil", their "share of duty" from the Marwitz inheritance after he died. We know this because later, post reconciliation, when Wihelmine finally came clean with Fritz about why she wanted her quondam friend and lady-in-waiting out of Bayreuth, she told him Female Marwitz' condition was that Fritz releases her Pflichtteil to her, which he previously had refused to do (as King, he could sit on the inheritance as long as he wanted). (Fritz then agreed to this and Female Marwitz moved to Vienna.)

If Dad Marwitz could not disinherit his daughters altogether, I'm pretty sure Hans Heinrich could not have disinherited his son even if he'd wanted to. He could, however, decide who was to get the lion's share.

...how he'd have decided in a scenario where Hans Herrmann survives and is now the new King's favorite is another question altogether...

Re: Learning Frederick

[mildred_of_midgard]

Thank you for all this!

They still had claim to a "Pflichtteil", their "share of duty"

Makes sense--it's the same in French inheritance law. I can see I'm going to have to research Prussian inheritance law as much as I did French for this AU!

...how he'd have decided in a scenario where Hans Herrmann survives and is now the new King's favorite is another question altogether...

Yeah...

But even more interesting to me, since I might actually write this AU, is the one where Hans Hermann, eldest son, has deserted the army, has been living in exile under a death sentence for ten years, and only one year before Hans Heinrich's death, has been pardoned by the new king, but is still living in France.

I kind of feel like maybe Hans Heinrich, even if they have a reconciliation, does not approve of all the deserting and still goes with youngest son, thus passing over *two* older brothers.

But if the two brothers then kill each other after the younger one comes to majority, I guess it reverts to the remaining son, French exile Hans Hermann? Whose boyfriend, even if he's inherited the estate of the "très riche" Comte Rottembourg (reason for all my knowledge about French inheritance law), could probably use the inheritance of the "loaded" Hans Heinrich. :D

Re: Learning Frederick

[selenak]

Yes, I figure that's how it would go. I mean, AW as King could still hold Hans Herrmann's duty inheritance back and/or decide the majority of the money should go to cousin Ludolf, not out of spite but because of the same reason Fritz didn't want any Prussian nobility marrying non Prussians in rl (and neither had FW)- fear of foreign claims to Prussian estates thereafter. Otoh, Hans Herrmann living in French exile without a sign of marrying into French nobility isn't likely to pass the estate on to a French family, so that's not so much an issue, and also, I figure that Katte's stepmom, after going through the horror of her sons killing each other, is going to need consolation. In an ideal scenario, AW has already pardoned both Fritz and Katte (and Peter) for the desertion when he came to the throne, so Hans Herrmann can come back (not for good, just for a visit) to console Stepmom, and then she petitions the King to grant the estate and lion's share of the money to her beloved stepson.

Re: Learning Frederick

[mildred_of_midgard]

In an ideal scenario, AW has already pardoned both Fritz and Katte (and Peter) for the desertion when he came to the throne

Yep, he has. Even before Hans Heinrich dies the following year, so I've been planning for Hans Hermann to make a trip back to visit dying dad in 1741. Then yes, a visit in 1748 to grieving stepmom, and yes, I absolutely thought stepmom would petition for Hans Hermann. I'm glad you think this is plausible! Also, I'm glad we get to keep the duel. It's terrible irl, but it makes great fiction!

Good point about the marriage: he'll be 44 in 1748, have lived in France for almost 20 years, and be married to Fritz unmarried. So while it's not impossible he might still marry into a French family, it's reasonable to assume he won't, especially if he says Fritz will kill him he has no intention of it, and will let it pass to Heinrich Christoph's line after his death.

Fritz, btw, I think *doesn't* go back to Prussia, at least not in 1740 when he doesn't trust koolaid-drinking Dad-favored younger brother at all, pardon or no pardon. But AW can travel west to inspect his domains, and the brothers can meet up in Strasbourg, or maybe Aachen (because historically, Suhm is sick around this time, though I'm going to have a hard time letting him die in his 40s and will probably save him at least a little while longer :P).

Re: Learning Frederick

[selenak]

I like it! Another possible meeting point would be Wesel, given that's where Voltaire came to visit IRL. Which reminds me: does Fritz still start a correspondance, or, seeing as he lives in France and Cirey is in Lorraine, even pay a visit himself?

Re: Learning Frederick

[mildred_of_midgard]

Wesel: I'm leaning toward having Fritz avoid Prussian territory altogether until he gets to know AW. As I've mentioned, I think a lot of his refusal to give up his claim to the throne at 18 was that the throne was his only prospect of escape. Lovable cushion-offering kid or not, AW was a prospective future FW.

Voltaire: definitely! They make a trip to Cirey when Algarotti is there, and Wilhelmine and Émilie hit it off (per cahn's request) and Peter and Algarotti as well. This is one of the vignettes I'd actually started drafting back in May.

(Someone remind me that I have to get my German on more solid footing first. :P)

Re: Learning Frederick

[cahn]

:PP I have to at least finish talking about our current reading group!! I will seriously yell at you if you leave me hanging at this point!

But really, now that you have Ziebura, don't you want to start going through those? You can call it fic research :PP

also I have conjunctions now, those are also very helpful!!

Re: Learning Frederick

[mildred_of_midgard]

Hee! Well, obviously I'm finishing our current reading group, but at this rate, we'll be done reading Friday or this weekend.

You can call it fic research :PP

I am absolutely calling it fic research. :PP

Selena, next up in our reading group's queue (either already in my possession or ordered and on the way) are:

Ziebura: AW
Ziebura: sons
Ziebura: wives
Oster: Wilhelmine
Krockow: Fritz & Heinrich
Lehndorff: 2007 volume 1

We're about a year behind you, but at least we're following in your footsteps!

(Many thanks to cahn for helping fund my book habit and my German studies. :) )

also I have conjunctions now, those are also very helpful!!

Conjunctions are helpful!

Re: Learning Frederick

[selenak]

I’m very impressed by your thoroughness! A word of warning re: Sons. The reason why I never summed this up for you is that it is basically what looks like an essay/lecture in book form and contains nothing new that‘s not in the other books already. Well, at least it‘s very short.

Also: are you sure you want to do the three Zieburas in a row? Because AW‘s ending combined with the wives‘ fates in short order could feel depressing to you. I would suggest one of the others in between.

Or: outlying suggestion - use the link to the website with Wilhelmine‘s France and Italy letters I put permanently at our Rheinsberg. (And everyone‘s replies to hers.) The letters are in French and German, so you can choose your language to practive on, they‘re short texts and from a time when she was happy and so were Fritz and the sibs - leaving aside Fritzian sour grapes outbursts which he acknowledges as such - , and they‘re plenty interesting to boot in terms of providing glimpses at France and Italy during that time. (Not to mention that letters like Wilhelmine’s about her non-audience with the Pope showcase her and Fritz kidding each other in what must have been one of the charms of their interaction when they weren’t needing comfort or help with the drama of their lives.) I‘m not saying you should read everyone, but if I were you, I‘d read some between the AW and the Wives, for example, to lift your spirits, and as a reminder these people have modes of interaction other than being punched and punching down. If you like, I could select a few so you can look them up.

Re: Learning Frederick

[mildred_of_midgard]

Because AW‘s ending combined with the wives‘ fates in short order could feel depressing to you.

Haha. Well, cahn definitely wanted to do the Ziebura three in that order so as to develop sympathy for the guys before reading about how they punched down. She said if she read the Wives book first, she'd go into the other two resenting the hell out of the Hohenzollern brothers.

She probably wouldn't mind splitting them up, but there's one other consideration: my main goal here is to beef up my German. And Ziebura has straightforward prose that I can handle, and unless Oster or Krockow also do, I'd like to work my way up. I learned my lesson trying to jump straight to Roes and Horowski. But if they do, I've no objection to interspersing either or both. (Lehndorff I'd like to leave for last, since I suspect the genre will make the content more difficult to follow in a foreign language.)

Additionally:
- I have a seriously high tolerance for depressing material.
- For someone who's trying to learn German, "no new content" (which I had guessed already) is a feature, not a bug. :)

Cahn, if you want to skip Sons, I don't mind. I'll read it on my own, and it'll give you a break between depressing book one and depressing book three. But it's short (~100 pages), and just because it has nothing new to Selena, doesn't mean you won't get anything out of it. :)

Selena, thank you for the Wilhelmine correspondence offer. I will seek out recommendations when the time comes (probably when we get to French--I want to read her memoirs and a bunch of correspondence).

Re: Learning Frederick

[cahn]

I mean, maybe that's not so bad, I might not feel so bad about AW if I'm really annoyed at him? :P Nah, I still think wives should be last. Either splitting them up or not will work for me.

I miiiiight take you up on that skipping Sons. We'll see. It is possible my German might be good enough by that point not that I'll feel up to reading it, but that at least I might feel interested in seeing how much I can make out.

Though I think novels might actually work better for me for that -- are the other Voigts in German, or is it just Homecoming?

German reading group

[mildred_of_midgard]

Either splitting them up or not will work for me.

We'll see how I feel about the syntax of the others when they arrive, then, and play it by ear.

Everyone just remember: the quicker I get my German up to snuff, the quicker I can start reading things Google translate can't handle, like blackletter font, or lots of footnotes or other complicated formatting. :D

Though I think novels might actually work better for me for that -- are the other Voigts in German, or is it just Homecoming?

Nope, it's all of them! All the Tillerman books, I mean, I haven't checked her others. I just grabbed my personal favorite for my own use, but if you want to pay for one or more of the others, and possibly bribe me with a book of my own choosing to generate an interleaved translation for you, I'm game. :)

Re: German reading group

[mildred_of_midgard]

Royal reader selenak, how do you feel about reading a book for me/us in the name of a good cause? Two good causes, actually.

Because I'm going to produce an interleaved translation of a book cahn wants to practice her German on, and in return for my labor she's going to bribe me with a book of my choosing.

Now, as we all know, I have no time to read, I am busy learning your wonderful language. But I would very much like someone to read me Lady Mary Montagu's biography, which is supposed to be good, and definitive, and at least semi-recent (2001). It's also long, and apparently devotes a lot of page time to her literary output, but you can skim whatever is not of interest.

There's no particular rush, but would you have time and interest in the next, say, few months to read and summarize this for us? I feel that, in addition to cahn and me improving our German, letting Lady Mary be a little more three-dimensional in our fandom than "introduced inoculation to Europe and stalked Algarotti" is a worthy cause.

If you're too busy, no worries!

Re: German reading group

[selenak]

Right now I'm too busy, but I might manage it next month. I certainly want to know more about Lady Mary!

Incidentally: in the long term, I've also been meaning to read her letters from Turkey, aka the ones which made her famous. (And which Heinrich did read and recced to his friends and relations, which is the very flimsy ground on which I base my speculation he knew some English on.) So depending on when I manage the biography, I might add the letters after.

Re: German reading group

[mildred_of_midgard]

Thank you from the bottom of my heart, and I hope you do find time to read the letters! I very much want to read her correspondence, but the complete, non-bowdlerized set is $50 each for 3 volumes, and while my local library has it, I don't think they would like it if I ripped out all the pages and churned it through my document scanner. :/

The book is now on order.

cahn: I'm almost finished formatting AW. I was going to finish tonight, but then I discovered Google had decided to disappear the last 30 pages (too incendiary against Fritz? Prussian cyberagents from the beyond?), so I'm going to have to figure out what went wrong tomorrow and finish up. I should have the translation uploaded sometime tomorrow so we can resume our Hohenzollern and also German studies.

Yay reading group!