Frederick the Great, discussion post 16
Jul. 14th, 2020 09:12 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnWe have slowed down a lot, but are still (sporadically) going! And somehow filled up the last post while I wasn't looking!
...I was asked to start a new thread so that STDs could be discussed. Really! :D
...I was asked to start a new thread so that STDs could be discussed. Really! :D
Re: Not his type?
Date: 2020-07-16 05:36 am (UTC)I like your alternate suggestion from several posts ago that he might have enjoyed being made to work like no one's business for domination but in the end succeeding.
That's one of the possibilities I see. I have another, more boring and kink-free theory after having read Ziebura. Heinrich was a helper in a way that could be healthy--he liked taking young people under his wing and funding their educations and such--and could turn into trying to fix people who didn't want to be fixed. And it's possible that, when combined with a partner with a charismatic personality and possibly good sex, the more dysfunctional a relationship was, the more energy Heinrich tried to invest in helping the young man live up to his potential. It's the old "I can change him!" story.
It's often the case that the people you love the most are not the ones who've done the most for you, but the ones you've done the most for. There's also the sunk costs fallacy: the more you've invested in something, the more compelled you feel to keep investing, to justify your past investment, in hopes of getting an eventual payoff, instead of cutting your losses.
More dysfunctional than kinky, imo. But that's not to say that Heinrich might not also have been a pushy bottom in bed! Kinks can be independent of any other aspect of your life. And regardless, fiction can do whatever fiction wants, and Heinrich either as bottom or someone who works like nobody's business to finally win is a great dynamic. :D
Doesn't mean he trades them in once they're closer to 30
Yup, that's why I was careful to say "started relationships" and say that it was not only his sexual attraction to this particular age that mattered--the relationships clearly gathered momentum as they went on.
Heinrich not having an erastes: I was thinking exactly that, both that we have much less data and that he had that gay steward.
Heinrich had a sexual type, and that type was young, handsome, in his early 20s, energetic, charming and none too reliable.
Yep.
Re: Not his type?
Date: 2020-07-16 11:05 am (UTC)Point very much taken, and very plausible indeed.
Now of course I have to ask: do you think Fritz had a type? Given we have much more data, but also that the more steady boyfriends richly varied in personality, on a scale from Peter Keith to Voltaire?
Re: Not his type?
Date: 2020-07-18 07:15 pm (UTC)Point very much taken, and very plausible indeed.
I like it as an explanation because it fits with the rest of Heinrich's personality, and isn't an ad hoc proposal that runs counter to the rest of his personality. Not to say that just because it fits Occam's Razor it's right, but I find it plausible. The one thing I see in Heinrich's life is a lot of taking responsibility and trying to solve problems even when it was an uphill battle--this is "the fly in the carriage" guy. And with the three most WTF guys, Kalckreuth, Mara, and Kaphengst, it's clear he saw a lot of potential there and wanted them to live up to it.
Now of course I have to ask: do you think Fritz had a type? Given we have much more data, but also that the more steady boyfriends richly varied in personality, on a scale from Peter Keith to Voltaire?
Interesting question! And lol, that's such a great scale.
The first and most obvious thing they all the steady boyfriends we know of had in common was being intellectuals or intellectually inclined. Algarotti and Voltaire are obvious; Peter Keith was a member of and curator at the Academy of Sciences and apparently spent all his time in exile reading books and studying languages; Wilhelmine says even after he joined the army, Katte kept up his studies on his own; Suhm not only translated Wolff for Fritz, but Fritz seems to have seen him as one of his main teachers of philosophy; Fredersdorf, who had the fewest educational opportunities of them all, impressed Lehndorff with how this guy from the back end of Pomerania managed to make up his educational deficiencies with such success.
They definitely ran the gamut of introversion to extraversion. Keith, Suhm, and Fredersdorf I would put more on the introverted side, Katte, Algarotti, and Voltaire on the more charismatic and witty side. Keith is probably on the far end of introversion, and Suhm's and Fredersdorf's job descriptions indicate they were likely to be a little more sociable than Keith.
One thing that comes to mind that they must have had in common, even where we lack direct evidence, is positive reinforcement for Fritz. Hille was saying in 1731 that the way to Fritz's heart was through praise. Catt said the same thing in 17whatever. (He had Fritz say it, but whether Fritz did or not, it's definitely something Catt observed.) So praise, reassurance, and/or kindness. We have evidence for heavy amounts of praise from the correspondence with Voltaire (SO MUCH praise), Algarotti, and Suhm. The thrust of Katte's words is skewed toward criticism by the nature of the evidence, but if you look at his *actions*, the devotion couldn't have been more obvious. Plus we do see from his testimony that he was someone Fritz would come to when he was crying and needed comfort. Keith comes across as just incredibly wholesome, plus his actions (pre 1742) show devotion to Fritz. And even given the way he had to be formal in correspondence, Fredersdorf's actions show devotion, and a certain amount of affection comes through even in the letters. So I have to conclude Fritz liked praise and verbal affection, even if he and Voltaire got addicted to each other's dysfunction.
What I've always found interesting is that the presence of intellect and an interest in book learning (more indirectly in Fredersdorf's case) is mandatory, but music and poetry seem to be optional, with Suhm and Keith as the exceptions. Now, as 18th century nobles, they might have been able to produce a few tunes on an instrument in front of friends, but it doesn't seem to have formed part of their relationship with Fritz, is what I'm saying.
Ages seem to have ranged from significantly older than Fritz to close contemporaries (Keith 8 months older, Algarotti 10 months younger), with the ones younger than Fritz being, as far as I can tell, flirtations/sexual at best (Marwitz, Glasow, possible handsome hussars). This is consistent with most of Fritz's close relationships being with people half a generation to a generation older than he was. Yeah, even George Keith, Earl of Marischal, one of the few friends of Fritz's late years, was a full 20 years older than Fritz. I suppose his readers tended to be younger.
Conventional attractiveness: Yes for Fredersdorf and Algarotti. No for Voltaire and apparently Katte. Unknown for Suhm. Opinions seem to vary on Keith, but the cross-eyedness evidently took some getting used to. (Between not just FW putting it in his wanted description, but both Lehndorff and Formey feeling the need to mention it after his death, and Formey's "it wasn't that bad once you got used to it!", I feel it must have been pretty damn noticeable before you got used to it. Lehndorff's "not as noticeable as in most such cases" notwithstanding--I think Lehndorff got used to it.)
None of them were military men, or not really. Katte and Keith only under duress, and neither distinguished himself. Fredersdorf got out as soon as he had a chance. Keith, the only one with a real service record, seems to have joined the Portuguese army during a time of peace in order to get a paycheck while he stayed in a country where he liked the climate and wanted to study Romance languages. Rejoined the Prussian army only out of peer pressure in 1742, stayed home in 1756, and never got a promotion after Fritz became king, but did get a lot of civilian administrative and logistical responsibilities.
Three of them were foreigners, which is consistent with the resentment at Fritz's court for the preference shown to foreigners. And come to think of it, Katte being well-traveled and cosmopolitan was a major source of Fritz's attraction to him. And Keith, as we've noticed, jumped at the chance to get out of Prussia, even though he hadn't seen Fritz in several months, and there's no evidence he put up resistance beforehand, and he's the first one for whom we have evidence that he was involved in an escape attempt. This leaves Fredersdorf as the exception.
But yeah, I think that's what I've got: kindness/praise (less kindness from Voltaire, but whoa praise), and intellect. Music/art/poetry a major plus but apparently not necessary, at least not when Fritz was younger. Ditto charisma and wit.
Keith and Voltaire were definitely the most different! (Oh, tangentially, I've also now seen that the Academy voted *unanimously* in Maupertuis's favor in the big showdown, so that includes Maupertuis' friend and protégé Peter Keith. :P)
Re: Not his type?
Date: 2020-07-19 04:25 am (UTC)Also *nods* It would be totally unsurprising to me that Fritz came out of his childhood with an addiction to praise and positive verbal reinforcement.
Re: Not his type?
Date: 2020-07-19 04:34 am (UTC)*stares pointedly at Fritz*
Re: Not his type?
Date: 2020-07-19 02:33 pm (UTC)Thank you for the thorough write-up on the steady boyfriends and their shared traits. Also, poor EC. Even had she had the right gender, the only one of these she could have delivered was kindness/praise.
Re: Not his type?
Date: 2020-07-20 05:20 am (UTC)I don't know if anyone knew when they voted just how involved Fritz would end up getting, but Maupertuis *was* their boss and on good terms with the King, and Voltaire was the interloper, so there's that.
ETA: Now that I've checked the dates again, I see that when they first voted, Voltaire wasn't really involved yet. He got involved after the decision.
Re: Not his type?
Date: 2020-07-18 04:20 am (UTC)Huh. That... does rather explain a lot.
Re: Not his type?
Date: 2020-07-18 07:22 pm (UTC)I suspect the sex was also fantastic, but I don't think that's the whole story.
Re: Not his type?
Date: 2020-07-19 04:20 am (UTC)Re: Not his type?
Date: 2020-07-19 05:09 am (UTC)Oh, also, speaking of Heinrich and his money-wasting favorites, German wiki says the story that Fritz was involved in the decision to give Kaphengst Meseberg when he told Heinrich he had to kick him out of Rheinsberg is an oft-repeated but unsubstantiated claim. It says that Kaphengst was mostly living in Berlin at the time anyway.
If Fontane is our only source, and Ziebura doesn't mention it (at least that I remember in the one bio that I've read, and I was looking for it)...maybe? Do we think Fontane had access to a letter that we don't? If it was unprintable, it could have gotten disappeared!
Re: Not his type?
Date: 2020-07-19 02:13 pm (UTC)On the third hand: Fontane was a novelist. Though usually you can tell the part where he makes things up (like the description of Hans Heinrich returning from the wars and meeting his kid son) and where he tells stories he has from sources. Also, he provides an exact year for the order, the sum of the money, and the name of the man who supposedly delivered the order, so I do suspect he had the anecdote from a source, and money is on the page he names, von Wüllknitz. Here's the passage from the Wanderungen, verbatim:
Der König, der in seiner Sanssouci-Einsamkeit von allem unterrichtet war, mißbilligte, was in Rheinsberg vorging, und wollte dem »Verhältnis« à tout prix ein Ende machen. 1774 überbrachte deshalb ein Page des Königs (von Wülknitz) dem Prinzen Heinrich ein königliches Geschenk von 10000 Stück Friedrichsdor, freilich zugleich mit der Order, »daß er den Major von Kaphengst entlassen möge«, eine Order, deren Wortlaut sich hier der Möglichkeit der Mitteilung entzieht.
Re: Not his type?
Date: 2020-07-20 05:44 am (UTC)I did not see anything in the footnote saying why they think the story about Fritz asking for Kaphengst's dismissal is wrong, either.
No, they definitely don't make a convincing argument. The only reason (unsubstantiated) they give is that Kaphengst mostly lived in Berlin at the time anyway. Which, since that didn't stop him from spending all of Heinrich's money, wouldn't have stopped Fritz from saying "Dump him or else." Although I do wonder, if he mostly wasn't living in Rheinsberg, how on earth Fritz would have been satisfied with Heinrich buying him Meseberg as technically satisfying the terms of the conditions, especially since Lehndorff reports Kaphengst hanging out at Rheinsberg anyway.
Otoh, Wiki also claims the Fredersdorf got dismissed because of money troubles tale without giving any citations for it
Indeed, and if it were Wiki vs. Krackow/Fontane, I would accept Krackow/Fontane without further comment! But it seems to be Ziebura vs. Krackow/Fontane, since she not only omits the story but gives an alternate reason, and I was wondering if she knows something we don't know.
I think Fontane also got something else wrong, Fredersdorf's marriage year, maybe? but point taken about the convincing amount of detail in this account. I want to believe it's true. :P (The thing that makes *me* doubt is, as I've alluded to, Fritz taking Heinrich's defiance lying down. Especially if he really is worried about Kaphengst getting his hands on the treasury someday.)
Re: Not his type?
Date: 2020-07-20 07:09 am (UTC)Well, the basic idea of buying Meseberg (which wasn't just the palace but considerable estates) for Kaphengst according to Ziebura was to make him financially independent, which if Kaphengst had any idea about how to run an estate and any restraint whatsoever it would have done. I see the wiki footnote compares the gift to Fritz giving Fredersdorf Zernikow; that comparison shows of course how terrible Kaphengst was, because Meseberg is where Germany puts its foreign guests of state today; Zernikow was and is still a country house. And the estate was then considerably smaller. Yet Fredersdorf managed to make it thrive, big time.
The thing that makes *me* doubt is, as I've alluded to, Fritz taking Heinrich's defiance lying down
Just idly speculating here: as long as Heinrich keeps having these money spending boyfriends like Kaphengst, he'll also be dependent on Fritz. If 1774 is a correct date, Heinrich has in the last four years had great success in his Russia trips, proving that he's not just a good general, he's a good diplomat. He's got a good international reputation (see also the Poles considering him as King in 1764 and Catherine wanting him to become her satrap in Wallachia). And Fritz was paranoid about "princes of the blood" (read: his brothers) getting uppity already in his 1752 political testament, at a point when Heinrich hadn't done anything other than mouth off and was without any reputation abroad.
So maybe he had mixed feelings about the entire Kaphengst situation. On the one hand, the man is clearly no good for Heinrich on either the personal or the professional level, and a potential danger in case young not yet FW2 dies and so do his even younger children. On the other, the one thing marring Heinrich's general good reputation abroad is that he has these extravagant favourites (see Frau Bielke writing to Catherine in 1766 in her "pity he didn't marry you back then" letter about "the rumors darkening his fame", and the French courtiers who meet him when he finally makes it to Paris being surprised because they heard about the "dominated by his favourites" thing and didn't expect him to be smart and determined); and during their terse 1746 late "first you don't talk to me for six months, now you want me to let you go on the Grand Tour?" letter exchange Fritz wrote that the one thing Heinrich needs him for is to bail him out with his money spending romances. So the existence of Kaphengst also gives Fritz the upper hand over Heinrich, at least in his own mind.
Re: Not his type?
Date: 2020-07-23 01:20 am (UTC)HAHAHA EVERY comparison with Fredersdorf shows how terrible Kaphengst was. :P
Yet Fredersdorf managed to make it thrive, big time.
Fredersdorf is so great. <33
a potential danger in case young not yet FW2 dies and so do his even younger children.
I don't even think anyone would necessarily have to die, and certainly not all of them.
1. If FW2 dies, Heinrich's regent for the kids.
2. If FW2 lives, Fritz in the mid 1770s is talking about setting Heinrich up as the real power behind the throne, because Wretched Nephew sucks so much.
3. The paranoid Fritz who was accusing AW of being too easily influenced by Heinrich is going to have the same concerns about FW2. Neither Fritz nor Heinrich foresaw FW2 totally sidelining Heinrich.
Fritz wrote that the one thing Heinrich needs him for is to bail him out with his money spending romances
So is this Reisewitz already in 1746?
So maybe he had mixed feelings about the entire Kaphengst situation.
That I can buy. What would surprise me would be if Fritz gave him an order and Heinrich didn't follow through on it. Okay, in 1774, Heinrich says, "One last gift, then he'll be independent in short order," and Fritz allows it. But the years wind on, and Heinrich doesn't stop paying his bills until 1785, and Fritz still doesn't say anything? He even gives permission for the Paris trip in the early 1780s, which Heinrich has to postpone because Kaphengst is spending all his money, and Fritz lets it go unremarked? I just feel that disobeying Fritz is not something that results in Fritz being silent on the topic for 10 years.
I could be wrong! As you said, Fontane cites a lot of specific info, and an unprintable letter is one that could easily have gotten disappeared. And as discussed, Fritz had plenty of reasons to worry about Kaphengst getting his hands on the treasury. I'm just examining the case from both sides.
Re: Not his type?
Date: 2020-07-23 05:54 am (UTC)I did look up the exact phrasing, and it's this: You know how carefully I sought your friendship; that I spared neither caresses, nor what can be called advances, to win your heart. You know that I have done for your establishment all that my faculties allowed me to do. But, despite this cordiality and all that my procedures have been most affectionate, I could not win your friendship.You confided in me when the history of your loves forced you to have recourse to me, as the only one capable of satisfying you; but on no other occasion have you shown me the slightest trust. On the contrary, I saw in your conduct only an extreme coldness; you did not live with me as with a brother, but as with a stranger.
Now I certainly interpreted the boldened sentence as meaning "you asked me to bail you out when your romances put you in debt since no one else in this family has any money to do so", but I suppose it could also literally mean "confide in". Bear in mind this is still the year of Marwitz. For all we know, Marwitz did have an STD, Heinrich needed a doctor and that's what Fritz is alluding to. (Though I doubt it, because if he needed a doctor, Heinrich certainly had other options to ask - the gay steward, for one, brother AW, for another.) The one thing which none of these guys can offer in 1746 but Fritz can is money.
...or maybe he means Marwitz getting rehired as a guard after being fired as a page?
Aside from everything else, though, bearing in mind Fritz' gleefully mocking tone in the Marwitz letters from earlier the same year, You know how carefully I sought your friendship; that I spared neither caresses, nor what can be called advances, to win your heart is certainly one way of putting it. Fritz rewriting reality certainly didn't just start after AW's death...
Re: Not his type?
Date: 2020-07-23 09:47 pm (UTC)Yeah, I saw that, but my thinking was that he must have attracted Heinrich's attention already by 1751 in order for Heinrich to want to take him into his service at the first opportunity. But I wasn't sure how *much* earlier than 1751 and if 5 years was too much. And apparently he became a page for AW "after the peace," which I'm guessing is the peace of December 1745, so late 1746 was just possible. And Lehndorff wasn't around to report until 1748, right?
So if it was money, then Reisewitz wasn't the first. If it wasn't...
...or maybe he means Marwitz getting rehired as a guard after being fired as a page?
That is the first thing that came to mind for me. Because...
Marwitz did have an STD, Heinrich needed a doctor and that's what Fritz is alluding to. (Though I doubt it, because if he needed a doctor, Heinrich certainly had other options to ask - the gay steward, for one, brother AW, for another.)
So, if in March/April 1746, Fritz is taunting Heinrich about Marwitz having an STD, and Heinrich is so offended he spends the next six months not speaking to Fritz, I feel like he would rather DIE OF AN STD than admit Fritz was right to his face. I.e. I think AW or the steward would be looped in after promising to keep the secret to their grave, because Heinrich would never ever live it down otherwise.
Now, getting Fritz to rehire Marwitz, that, I think Heinrich could get behind. Especially since, didn't Ziebura say Heinrich flattered Fritz in an entirely uncharacteristic way to get Kalckreuth a promotion during the Seven Years' War?
Speaking of Marwitz's career, I still find it surprising that he was a page at age 23-24, depending when in the year his birthday falls. Do you think it's possible Lehndorff, who's writing ten years later about events he wasn't present for, is conflating, and Marwitz started as a page, but wasn't still a page in 1746?
Or do you think there were 23- to 24-year old pages running around?
Re: Not his type?
Date: 2020-07-24 05:20 am (UTC)You know how carefully I sought your friendship; that I spared neither caresses, nor what can be called advances, to win your heart
Oh Fritz. I know, you're just soooooo nice to Heinrich, why is it that Heinrich never realizes how awesome you are to him??
Re: Not his type?
Date: 2020-07-24 01:15 pm (UTC)