cahn | Frederick the Great, discussion post 16

We have slowed down a lot, but are still (sporadically) going! And somehow filled up the last post while I wasn't looking!

...I was asked to start a new thread so that STDs could be discussed. Really! :D

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From:

mildred_of_midgard

Look at Heinrich taking all those young people under his wing. Look at him giving asylum to the emigrants. Look at him banging his head against FW2 and FW3, apparently incapable of giving up until the last year or two. Look at him being unable to give up command during the Seven Years' War, despite kind of wanting to. Look at him taking responsibility for the treatment of civilians in whatever region he had an army in. This guy was a problem solver, and you could argue that Mara, Kalckreuth, and Kaphengst, and the relationships therewith, were in some ways all problems that needed solving, in Heinrich's mind. The harder the problem, the more his inner terrier kicked in.

I suspect the sex was also fantastic, but I don't think that's the whole story.

From:

cahn

Yes!! It explains all those things! The banging his head against FW2 and FW3 especially was something I didn't quite understand while reading Ziebura -- but this makes perfect sense of it.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

TERRIER.

Oh, also, speaking of Heinrich and his money-wasting favorites, German wiki says the story that Fritz was involved in the decision to give Kaphengst Meseberg when he told Heinrich he had to kick him out of Rheinsberg is an oft-repeated but unsubstantiated claim. It says that Kaphengst was mostly living in Berlin at the time anyway.

If Fontane is our only source, and Ziebura doesn't mention it (at least that I remember in the one bio that I've read, and I was looking for it)...maybe? Do we think Fontane had access to a letter that we don't? If it was unprintable, it could have gotten disappeared!

From:

selenak

It's not in Ziebura, though it is in Christian von Krockow's double portrait of Fritz and Heinrich. (Which is where I first came across it, then I looked the sourceup in the relevant part of the Wanderungen.) Mind you, since Krockow uses Fontane as a source, it doesn't give a second citation. Otoh, Wiki also claims the Fredersdorf got dismissed because of money troubles tale without giving any citations for it, and I did not see anything in the footnote saying why they think the story about Fritz asking for Kaphengst's dismissal is wrong, either.

On the third hand: Fontane was a novelist. Though usually you can tell the part where he makes things up (like the description of Hans Heinrich returning from the wars and meeting his kid son) and where he tells stories he has from sources. Also, he provides an exact year for the order, the sum of the money, and the name of the man who supposedly delivered the order, so I do suspect he had the anecdote from a source, and money is on the page he names, von Wüllknitz. Here's the passage from the Wanderungen, verbatim:

Der König, der in seiner Sanssouci-Einsamkeit von allem unterrichtet war, mißbilligte, was in Rheinsberg vorging, und wollte dem »Verhältnis« à tout prix ein Ende machen. 1774 überbrachte deshalb ein Page des Königs (von Wülknitz) dem Prinzen Heinrich ein königliches Geschenk von 10000 Stück Friedrichsdor, freilich zugleich mit der Order, »daß er den Major von Kaphengst entlassen möge«, eine Order, deren Wortlaut sich hier der Möglichkeit der Mitteilung entzieht.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Yes, I remember you saying it was in Krackow, but if he got it from Fontane, then Fontane is our source no matter how many people repeat him.

I did not see anything in the footnote saying why they think the story about Fritz asking for Kaphengst's dismissal is wrong, either.

No, they definitely don't make a convincing argument. The only reason (unsubstantiated) they give is that Kaphengst mostly lived in Berlin at the time anyway. Which, since that didn't stop him from spending all of Heinrich's money, wouldn't have stopped Fritz from saying "Dump him or else." Although I do wonder, if he mostly wasn't living in Rheinsberg, how on earth Fritz would have been satisfied with Heinrich buying him Meseberg as technically satisfying the terms of the conditions, especially since Lehndorff reports Kaphengst hanging out at Rheinsberg anyway.

Otoh, Wiki also claims the Fredersdorf got dismissed because of money troubles tale without giving any citations for it

Indeed, and if it were Wiki vs. Krackow/Fontane, I would accept Krackow/Fontane without further comment! But it seems to be Ziebura vs. Krackow/Fontane, since she not only omits the story but gives an alternate reason, and I was wondering if she knows something we don't know.

I think Fontane also got something else wrong, Fredersdorf's marriage year, maybe? but point taken about the convincing amount of detail in this account. I want to believe it's true. :P (The thing that makes *me* doubt is, as I've alluded to, Fritz taking Heinrich's defiance lying down. Especially if he really is worried about Kaphengst getting his hands on the treasury someday.)

From:

selenak

, how on earth Fritz would have been satisfied with Heinrich buying him Meseberg as technically satisfying the terms of the conditions

Well, the basic idea of buying Meseberg (which wasn't just the palace but considerable estates) for Kaphengst according to Ziebura was to make him financially independent, which if Kaphengst had any idea about how to run an estate and any restraint whatsoever it would have done. I see the wiki footnote compares the gift to Fritz giving Fredersdorf Zernikow; that comparison shows of course how terrible Kaphengst was, because Meseberg is where Germany puts its foreign guests of state today; Zernikow was and is still a country house. And the estate was then considerably smaller. Yet Fredersdorf managed to make it thrive, big time.

The thing that makes *me* doubt is, as I've alluded to, Fritz taking Heinrich's defiance lying down

Just idly speculating here: as long as Heinrich keeps having these money spending boyfriends like Kaphengst, he'll also be dependent on Fritz. If 1774 is a correct date, Heinrich has in the last four years had great success in his Russia trips, proving that he's not just a good general, he's a good diplomat. He's got a good international reputation (see also the Poles considering him as King in 1764 and Catherine wanting him to become her satrap in Wallachia). And Fritz was paranoid about "princes of the blood" (read: his brothers) getting uppity already in his 1752 political testament, at a point when Heinrich hadn't done anything other than mouth off and was without any reputation abroad.

So maybe he had mixed feelings about the entire Kaphengst situation. On the one hand, the man is clearly no good for Heinrich on either the personal or the professional level, and a potential danger in case young not yet FW2 dies and so do his even younger children. On the other, the one thing marring Heinrich's general good reputation abroad is that he has these extravagant favourites (see Frau Bielke writing to Catherine in 1766 in her "pity he didn't marry you back then" letter about "the rumors darkening his fame", and the French courtiers who meet him when he finally makes it to Paris being surprised because they heard about the "dominated by his favourites" thing and didn't expect him to be smart and determined); and during their terse 1746 late "first you don't talk to me for six months, now you want me to let you go on the Grand Tour?" letter exchange Fritz wrote that the one thing Heinrich needs him for is to bail him out with his money spending romances. So the existence of Kaphengst also gives Fritz the upper hand over Heinrich, at least in his own mind.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

that comparison shows of course how terrible Kaphengst was

HAHAHA EVERY comparison with Fredersdorf shows how terrible Kaphengst was. :P

Yet Fredersdorf managed to make it thrive, big time.

Fredersdorf is so great. <33

a potential danger in case young not yet FW2 dies and so do his even younger children.

I don't even think anyone would necessarily have to die, and certainly not all of them.

1. If FW2 dies, Heinrich's regent for the kids.
2. If FW2 lives, Fritz in the mid 1770s is talking about setting Heinrich up as the real power behind the throne, because Wretched Nephew sucks so much.
3. The paranoid Fritz who was accusing AW of being too easily influenced by Heinrich is going to have the same concerns about FW2. Neither Fritz nor Heinrich foresaw FW2 totally sidelining Heinrich.

Fritz wrote that the one thing Heinrich needs him for is to bail him out with his money spending romances

So is this Reisewitz already in 1746?

So maybe he had mixed feelings about the entire Kaphengst situation.

That I can buy. What would surprise me would be if Fritz gave him an order and Heinrich didn't follow through on it. Okay, in 1774, Heinrich says, "One last gift, then he'll be independent in short order," and Fritz allows it. But the years wind on, and Heinrich doesn't stop paying his bills until 1785, and Fritz still doesn't say anything? He even gives permission for the Paris trip in the early 1780s, which Heinrich has to postpone because Kaphengst is spending all his money, and Fritz lets it go unremarked? I just feel that disobeying Fritz is not something that results in Fritz being silent on the topic for 10 years.

I could be wrong! As you said, Fontane cites a lot of specific info, and an unprintable letter is one that could easily have gotten disappeared. And as discussed, Fritz had plenty of reasons to worry about Kaphengst getting his hands on the treasury. I'm just examining the case from both sides.

From:

selenak

Reisewitz: Ziebura has him entering Heinrich's services on the occasion of his (Heinrich's) marriage as his new master of the horses. Lehndorff helpfully provides a short biography when Reisewitz dies, which I think I already translated for you once many a post ago, which says that they were at school (Kloster Berge) together ("I always mistrusted him"), then Reisewitz became a page at AW's, and already started "all kind of debaucheries", "but because he had a pretty face and a vivacious temperament, he gained the attention of Prince Heinrich who took him into his service as master of the horses on the occasion of his wedding (i.e. in 1751). (When Fritz allowed Heinrich his own household.) Now Lehndorff could be wrong as to when exactly Reisewitz got Heinrich's attention, but his (Lehndorff's) younger self certainly backs up when Reisewitz committed his first financial misdeed because there's a lengthy diary entry on this, and it's in 1752. So, at a guess, whoever Fritz is referring to in his later 1746 letters, it's not Reisewitz.

I did look up the exact phrasing, and it's this: You know how carefully I sought your friendship; that I spared neither caresses, nor what can be called advances, to win your heart. You know that I have done for your establishment all that my faculties allowed me to do. But, despite this cordiality and all that my procedures have been most affectionate, I could not win your friendship.You confided in me when the history of your loves forced you to have recourse to me, as the only one capable of satisfying you; but on no other occasion have you shown me the slightest trust. On the contrary, I saw in your conduct only an extreme coldness; you did not live with me as with a brother, but as with a stranger.

Now I certainly interpreted the boldened sentence as meaning "you asked me to bail you out when your romances put you in debt since no one else in this family has any money to do so", but I suppose it could also literally mean "confide in". Bear in mind this is still the year of Marwitz. For all we know, Marwitz did have an STD, Heinrich needed a doctor and that's what Fritz is alluding to. (Though I doubt it, because if he needed a doctor, Heinrich certainly had other options to ask - the gay steward, for one, brother AW, for another.) The one thing which none of these guys can offer in 1746 but Fritz can is money.

...or maybe he means Marwitz getting rehired as a guard after being fired as a page?

Aside from everything else, though, bearing in mind Fritz' gleefully mocking tone in the Marwitz letters from earlier the same year, You know how carefully I sought your friendship; that I spared neither caresses, nor what can be called advances, to win your heart is certainly one way of putting it. Fritz rewriting reality certainly didn't just start after AW's death...

From:

mildred_of_midgard

"but because he had a pretty face and a vivacious temperament, he gained the attention of Prince Heinrich who took him into his service as master of the horses on the occasion of his wedding (i.e. in 1751)

Yeah, I saw that, but my thinking was that he must have attracted Heinrich's attention already by 1751 in order for Heinrich to want to take him into his service at the first opportunity. But I wasn't sure how *much* earlier than 1751 and if 5 years was too much. And apparently he became a page for AW "after the peace," which I'm guessing is the peace of December 1745, so late 1746 was just possible. And Lehndorff wasn't around to report until 1748, right?

So if it was money, then Reisewitz wasn't the first. If it wasn't...

...or maybe he means Marwitz getting rehired as a guard after being fired as a page?

That is the first thing that came to mind for me. Because...

Marwitz did have an STD, Heinrich needed a doctor and that's what Fritz is alluding to. (Though I doubt it, because if he needed a doctor, Heinrich certainly had other options to ask - the gay steward, for one, brother AW, for another.)

So, if in March/April 1746, Fritz is taunting Heinrich about Marwitz having an STD, and Heinrich is so offended he spends the next six months not speaking to Fritz, I feel like he would rather DIE OF AN STD than admit Fritz was right to his face. I.e. I think AW or the steward would be looped in after promising to keep the secret to their grave, because Heinrich would never ever live it down otherwise.

Now, getting Fritz to rehire Marwitz, that, I think Heinrich could get behind. Especially since, didn't Ziebura say Heinrich flattered Fritz in an entirely uncharacteristic way to get Kalckreuth a promotion during the Seven Years' War?

Speaking of Marwitz's career, I still find it surprising that he was a page at age 23-24, depending when in the year his birthday falls. Do you think it's possible Lehndorff, who's writing ten years later about events he wasn't present for, is conflating, and Marwitz started as a page, but wasn't still a page in 1746?

Or do you think there were 23- to 24-year old pages running around?

From:

cahn

...man, that LETTER. I'm just dying here!

You know how carefully I sought your friendship; that I spared neither caresses, nor what can be called advances, to win your heart

Oh Fritz. I know, you're just soooooo nice to Heinrich, why is it that Heinrich never realizes how awesome you are to him??

From:

selenak

I know. The only thing that stops me giggling is the thought that this is precisely how FW argued towards Fritz, up to and including during the grand submission.