(it does say his own vault, where he wanted to be buried but wasn't, not where all the other dogs are. Mind you, Büsching does not name any source for this, and remember what we agreed on re: rumors? I still think it's more likely Alcmene lies with the other dogs.
I agree qua objective historian, but qua fanfic writer ALCMENE'S IN THE VAULT. Anyway, it's good now to have a source for that that story at least predates the year 2000 (and even 1800). Thank you for the German clarification!
Well, if anything was left of her by then. I doubt that dog coffin was made of stone, after all. I don't think any dog skeletons in the vault got mentioned in the 1991 media reports.
True. A wooden coffin wouldn't last, but bones might. It depends on the soil conditions, though.
So where does he get that (correct) story from?
That is interesting, as Voltaire (recently published) and Thiébault (not yet published but still alive for people to talk to, as are his sources) both have the being thrown out of a window version. There must have been different versions floating around. Maybe Heinrich's boyfriends talked. :P
There's also "le roi m'a dit" Catt, who contributed to the oral grapevine long before the posthumous memoirs were published. Some percentage of gossip about the royals are going to be correct!
Again, Catt hadn't published yet, but it makes me wonder whether Büsching talked to him and that's where all this is from.
I see we reached a similar hypothesis. I also wondered if it might be the other way around; if Catt was reading the 1787-1790 anecdotes and incorporating them. We don't know that he went blind, and if he did we don't know when, and between 1788 and 1795 there are still plenty of years for him to be sticking words in Fritz's mouth.
ETA: Good grief. Büsching claims Fritz never needed any foreign subsidies.
Um. Good job with the fix-it fic, author! Same with the siblings! I'm writing a fix-it fic too, I'm just tagging it appropriately. :P
Fritz: Count Dufour AW: Count Schafgotsch. Algarotti: Count von Pfuhl.
Neat! I had seen Dufour as Fritz's, but had either not seen or forgotten the others.
That trip is still an embarrassment of riches for the fanfic author...
(Algarotti: none of you could convincingly play a non-noble, so don't even try, highnessess. I, on the other hand, can play a German.)
Hahaha.
Fritz: Look, my incognito held out longer than Voltaire's that one time, at least if you believe Bodanis!
Also, he says Fritz upon arriving in Straßburg lodged in the inn "Holy Cross" whereas AW lodged in the inn "Raven". So if you want to imagine Fritz and Algarotti getting it on, note he took care of not sharing rooms with younger bro for the night.
So noted!
Arrival in Straßburg was on the 23, ignominious departure on the 26th.
Does that mean the night of 25th was the one they spent under arrest?
Now, about page 126 - first of all, guess what the previous page says about the Pandur raid on the camp? Whom it names as a source? AUSTRIAN TRENCK!
I noticed that! And yes, I had noticed it actually seemed to be Austrian Trenck (I had the same thought process you did).
Mind you, I'm sideeying the veracity of any Trenck, but apparantly Austrian Trenck has written his life down somewhere, too?
Hopefully somewhere published before 1945!
Anyway. Rödenbeck doesn't quite make clear where his Austrian Trenck quote ends, but at a guess, when Biche is returned. (He also says that the wife of General Nadasty had taken to Biche, wanted to keep her and had to be asked repeatedly till she was ready to hand over the dog.)
She was obviously a Very Good Dog. *pets her*
(literally "credible men vowing for it"), without naming the gentlemen in question.
I had noticed that, yes. Had also raised an eyebrow. I spent some time trying to track that down, but was defeated by the proliferation of anecdotes, the fact that not all of them have been digitized, and, of course, my minimal German abilities.
Again, if any of said gentlemen was named Trenck
Ha.
Thanks for the Büsching's write-up! I figured that, as usual, you would give us material beyond the small bits I had asked you for. And as usual, you delivered. :)
One thing we haven't mentioned: Rococo German for greyhound was "Windspiel," which now means "wind chime" and results in some interesting Google translates. The modern German term seems to be "Windhund," correct me if I'm wrong.
There must have been different versions floating around. Maybe Heinrich's boyfriends talked. :P
Always a possibility, since I doubt Büsching talked to Heinrich the Anti himself. He's a devoted fan, spelling "He" for Fritz with capital letters all the time. (Which wasn't done, unless you were using the third person singular in direct address, or you were talking of the Almighty.)
. I also wondered if it might be the other way around; if Catt was reading the 1787-1790 anecdotes and incorporating them.
Possible with other stories, bu tnot with this particular one. For starters, Catt's version is in his diary. (Complete with Heinrich getting squeezed in when everyone is hiding under the table, which is a detail not in the later memoirs version.) It also names Frau von Kameka as the courageous FW-confronting protector. The Büsching version just names an anonymous stewardess and does not mention the siblings hiding, let alone Heinrich, it only mentions FW whaling on Wilhelmine. Conclusoin: Büsching might have heard the story from Catt, but Catt definitely did not take it from Büsching. (Again: this story. He might have taken others.)
Does that mean the night of 25th was the one they spent under arrest?
Rödenbeck doesn't say, after giving us the day of arrival and where everyone was lodging, he directly skips to the departure, though a footnote sums up the incident as told by Fritz to Voltaire in a later letter.
He also says that the wife of General Nadasty had taken to Biche, wanted to keep her and had to be asked repeatedly till she was ready to hand over the dog.)
She was obviously a Very Good Dog. *pets her*
Frau von Nadasty: But you told me I could keep her! She's adorable! I want to keep her!
Nadasty: How as I to know the Robber King is dog mad? Look, we've just lost a battle. The way this guy sounds, I wouldn't put it beneath him to go after us just to get the bloody dog back, and I'm in hot water with the Queen-Empress as it is for having to explain how we had time for a raid at the camp but not to win the battle.
Austrian Trenck: Hey, don't look at me. You were the one who told me you forgot your wedding anniversary and could I please bring you something from the camp!
(Incidentally: if Nadasty's wife was so taken by Biche, Biche, at least, can't have been a dog barking at women. Just saying.)
Windspiel/Windhund: actually, they're both still in use.
Possible with other stories, bu tnot with this particular one.
Right, sorry, when I mentioned it being the other way around in response to your "Again, Catt hadn't published yet, but it makes me wonder whether Büsching talked to him and that's where all this is from," the preceding sentence you had written was, "Büsching's footnote to the supposed death sentence for Fritz also contains the 'the King later looked it up at the archives, and resealed it, but did not take any revenge' tale." That's the one I was referring to with my "maybe Catt got it from Büsching" guess. We still don't know Catt's source on the archive opening, right? Though we've speculated it might have been Eichel?
Nadasty: How as I to know the Robber King is dog mad? Look, we've just lost a battle. The way this guy sounds, I wouldn't put it beneath him to go after us just to get the bloody dog back, and I'm in hot water with the Queen-Empress as it is for having to explain how we had time for a raid at the camp but not to win the battle.
Haha.
Austrian Trenck: Hey, don't look at me. You were the one who told me you forgot your wedding anniversary and could I please bring you something from the camp!
ROTFL.
(Incidentally: if Nadasty's wife was so taken by Biche, Biche, at least, can't have been a dog barking at women. Just saying.)
Maybe the dogs only bark at women in Fritz's vicinity? Maybe only because they get (perhaps unconscious) positive reinforcement for doing so? I always suspected positive reinforcement. :P
Windspiel/Windhund: actually, they're both still in use.
Oh, interesting. The internet was telling me "Windspiel" was archaic, and I figured that was why Google never once guessed that it was a dog.
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Italian greyhounds
Date: 2020-03-27 03:48 am (UTC)I agree qua objective historian, but qua fanfic writer ALCMENE'S IN THE VAULT. Anyway, it's good now to have a source for that that story at least predates the year 2000 (and even 1800). Thank you for the German clarification!
Well, if anything was left of her by then. I doubt that dog coffin was made of stone, after all. I don't think any dog skeletons in the vault got mentioned in the 1991 media reports.
True. A wooden coffin wouldn't last, but bones might. It depends on the soil conditions, though.
So where does he get that (correct) story from?
That is interesting, as Voltaire (recently published) and Thiébault (not yet published but still alive for people to talk to, as are his sources) both have the being thrown out of a window version. There must have been different versions floating around. Maybe Heinrich's boyfriends talked. :P
There's also "le roi m'a dit" Catt, who contributed to the oral grapevine long before the posthumous memoirs were published. Some percentage of gossip about the royals are going to be correct!
Again, Catt hadn't published yet, but it makes me wonder whether Büsching talked to him and that's where all this is from.
I see we reached a similar hypothesis. I also wondered if it might be the other way around; if Catt was reading the 1787-1790 anecdotes and incorporating them. We don't know that he went blind, and if he did we don't know when, and between 1788 and 1795 there are still plenty of years for him to be sticking words in Fritz's mouth.
ETA: Good grief. Büsching claims Fritz never needed any foreign subsidies.
Um. Good job with the fix-it fic, author! Same with the siblings! I'm writing a fix-it fic too, I'm just tagging it appropriately. :P
Fritz: Count Dufour
AW: Count Schafgotsch.
Algarotti: Count von Pfuhl.
Neat! I had seen Dufour as Fritz's, but had either not seen or forgotten the others.
That trip is still an embarrassment of riches for the fanfic author...
(Algarotti: none of you could convincingly play a non-noble, so don't even try, highnessess. I, on the other hand, can play a German.)
Hahaha.
Fritz: Look, my incognito held out longer than Voltaire's that one time, at least if you believe Bodanis!
Also, he says Fritz upon arriving in Straßburg lodged in the inn "Holy Cross" whereas AW lodged in the inn "Raven". So if you want to imagine Fritz and Algarotti getting it on, note he took care of not sharing rooms with younger bro for the night.
So noted!
Arrival in Straßburg was on the 23, ignominious departure on the 26th.
Does that mean the night of 25th was the one they spent under arrest?
Now, about page 126 - first of all, guess what the previous page says about the Pandur raid on the camp? Whom it names as a source? AUSTRIAN TRENCK!
I noticed that! And yes, I had noticed it actually seemed to be Austrian Trenck (I had the same thought process you did).
Mind you, I'm sideeying the veracity of any Trenck, but apparantly Austrian Trenck has written his life down somewhere, too?
Hopefully somewhere published before 1945!
Anyway. Rödenbeck doesn't quite make clear where his Austrian Trenck quote ends, but at a guess, when Biche is returned. (He also says that the wife of General Nadasty had taken to Biche, wanted to keep her and had to be asked repeatedly till she was ready to hand over the dog.)
She was obviously a Very Good Dog. *pets her*
(literally "credible men vowing for it"), without naming the gentlemen in question.
I had noticed that, yes. Had also raised an eyebrow. I spent some time trying to track that down, but was defeated by the proliferation of anecdotes, the fact that not all of them have been digitized, and, of course, my minimal German abilities.
Again, if any of said gentlemen was named Trenck
Ha.
Thanks for the Büsching's write-up! I figured that, as usual, you would give us material beyond the small bits I had asked you for. And as usual, you delivered. :)
One thing we haven't mentioned: Rococo German for greyhound was "Windspiel," which now means "wind chime" and results in some interesting Google translates. The modern German term seems to be "Windhund," correct me if I'm wrong.
Re: Italian greyhounds
Date: 2020-03-27 11:05 am (UTC)Always a possibility, since I doubt Büsching talked to Heinrich the Anti himself. He's a devoted fan, spelling "He" for Fritz with capital letters all the time. (Which wasn't done, unless you were using the third person singular in direct address, or you were talking of the Almighty.)
. I also wondered if it might be the other way around; if Catt was reading the 1787-1790 anecdotes and incorporating them.
Possible with other stories, bu tnot with this particular one. For starters, Catt's version is in his diary. (Complete with Heinrich getting squeezed in when everyone is hiding under the table, which is a detail not in the later memoirs version.) It also names Frau von Kameka as the courageous FW-confronting protector. The Büsching version just names an anonymous stewardess and does not mention the siblings hiding, let alone Heinrich, it only mentions FW whaling on Wilhelmine. Conclusoin: Büsching might have heard the story from Catt, but Catt definitely did not take it from Büsching. (Again: this story. He might have taken others.)
Does that mean the night of 25th was the one they spent under arrest?
Rödenbeck doesn't say, after giving us the day of arrival and where everyone was lodging, he directly skips to the departure, though a footnote sums up the incident as told by Fritz to Voltaire in a later letter.
He also says that the wife of General Nadasty had taken to Biche, wanted to keep her and had to be asked repeatedly till she was ready to hand over the dog.)
She was obviously a Very Good Dog. *pets her*
Frau von Nadasty: But you told me I could keep her! She's adorable! I want to keep her!
Nadasty: How as I to know the Robber King is dog mad? Look, we've just lost a battle. The way this guy sounds, I wouldn't put it beneath him to go after us just to get the bloody dog back, and I'm in hot water with the Queen-Empress as it is for having to explain how we had time for a raid at the camp but not to win the battle.
Austrian Trenck: Hey, don't look at me. You were the one who told me you forgot your wedding anniversary and could I please bring you something from the camp!
(Incidentally: if Nadasty's wife was so taken by Biche, Biche, at least, can't have been a dog barking at women. Just saying.)
Windspiel/Windhund: actually, they're both still in use.
Re: Italian greyhounds
Date: 2020-03-27 11:28 pm (UTC)Right, sorry, when I mentioned it being the other way around in response to your "Again, Catt hadn't published yet, but it makes me wonder whether Büsching talked to him and that's where all this is from," the preceding sentence you had written was, "Büsching's footnote to the supposed death sentence for Fritz also contains the 'the King later looked it up at the archives, and resealed it, but did not take any revenge' tale." That's the one I was referring to with my "maybe Catt got it from Büsching" guess. We still don't know Catt's source on the archive opening, right? Though we've speculated it might have been Eichel?
Nadasty: How as I to know the Robber King is dog mad? Look, we've just lost a battle. The way this guy sounds, I wouldn't put it beneath him to go after us just to get the bloody dog back, and I'm in hot water with the Queen-Empress as it is for having to explain how we had time for a raid at the camp but not to win the battle.
Haha.
Austrian Trenck: Hey, don't look at me. You were the one who told me you forgot your wedding anniversary and could I please bring you something from the camp!
ROTFL.
(Incidentally: if Nadasty's wife was so taken by Biche, Biche, at least, can't have been a dog barking at women. Just saying.)
Maybe the dogs only bark at women in Fritz's vicinity? Maybe only because they get (perhaps unconscious) positive reinforcement for doing so? I always suspected positive reinforcement. :P
Windspiel/Windhund: actually, they're both still in use.
Oh, interesting. The internet was telling me "Windspiel" was archaic, and I figured that was why Google never once guessed that it was a dog.