cahn | Frederick the Great discussion post 12

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Every time I am amazed and enchanted that this is still going on! Truly DW is the Earthly Paradise!

All the good stuff continues to be archived at

rheinsberg :)

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From:

selenak

Somehow I knew you'd ask me to check out the Fredersdorf letters sooner or later. ;) Maaaybe, but in the far, far future, if they are available somewhere. I mean, given that the worst fanboy had them during WWII.

Glasses: Hahn doesn't pretend this was an original discovery of his, he points out the various sources, but as he says: it usually does not get mentioned, even in deconstructing biographies, because it just doesn't fit with anyone's mental image of Fritz, love him or hate him or deconstruct him. (Hahn discusses it on page 144 ff in his book, after Fritz' various other physical handicaps (illnesses, gout). Now some of his conclusions I don't agree with - that Fritz might simply have disliked the hunt because he could never have been able to hit anything (without wearing his glasses) - but I do think he's onto somethin that even modern biographers refused to think all the every day implications of (increasing) short sightedness through, including another reason for Fritz avoiding public occasions and court life more and more the older he got.

(BTW, I'm trying to think who was the first royal to wear spectacles in public, not monocles, real spectacles, and am currently failing to come up with a pre 20th century example, but I might be misremembering...)

As for Catt not bringing it up in his memoirs: no matter how hurt his feelings were by his dismissal, I suspect a) this was too personal, and too painful because he himself was rapidly losing his sight, he knew how that felt, and b) it also did not fit with the mythical hero people wanted to read about.

Re: diary: he might not have noticed it during his first two years with Fritz. When Fritz read to him from his poetry or Racine, short sightedness would not have been a problem. And as Hahn says, in the field Fritz had all the excuse in the world to keep using a spy glass to trace the enemy's position and the like, and he had people reporting to him movements etc.

ETA: also worth pointing out - Amalie increasingly lost her sight in her last years; Mina lived long enough to go completely blind. So did cousin George III. Of people not related to Fritz by either blood or marriage, Bach famously went blind, so did Händel. Both had doctors who made it worse with attempted operations, infamously so. The doctor first getting glasses for Fritz was Dr. Lieberkühn in 1747, but given how Bach fared, I don't think Fritz ever considered anything but very secret glasses.

Edited Date: 2020-03-01 07:16 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Somehow I knew you'd ask me to check out the Fredersdorf letters sooner or later. ;)

You're only surprised I waited this long! ;)

Glasses: Hahn doesn't pretend this was an original discovery of his

Oh, I didn't think it was. I'm just saying, if nobody is commenting on it, it's probably because half the biographers don't know. (We've seen how hard it is to get people to question Catt, just because nobody else is doing it, even though it was known to people like Koser and Volz over a hundred years ago.)

What are his sources, btw?

Now some of his conclusions I don't agree with - that Fritz might simply have disliked the hunt because he could never have been able to hit anything

I agree with you, I think he disliked the hunt because 1) it's boring like sitting in the tobacco parliament is boring, 2) Dad is ramming it down his throat, 3) distant third, it's cruelty to animals. Not being able to hit anything is probably a feature rather than a bug at this point. :P

As for Catt not bringing it up in his memoirs: no matter how hurt his feelings were by his dismissal, I suspect a) this was too personal, and too painful because he himself was rapidly losing his sight, he knew how that felt

True, I guess we know neither when he lost his sight (I still don't have a source for this beyond Wikipedia, though maybe you do) and when he started composing the memoirs?

When Fritz read to him from his poetry or Racine, short sightedness would not have been a problem.

You mean because he knew the text almost by heart and only needed a bit of prompting? Because if I'm reading from a book without my glasses, you're going to notice me holding it very close to my nose and moving the page and/or my head around every few lines to home in on the next bit of text. (I tried it just now to confirm.)

And as Hahn says, in the field Fritz had all the excuse in the world to keep using a spy glass to trace the enemy's position and the like, and he had people reporting to him movements etc.

Yes, I've been trying to think through the implications, and when I thought about his famous coup d'œil (

cahn, that's a military history term for "ability to figure out the best way to deploy troops by looking at the terrain"), and all the troop reviews, etc. I realized that of course he'd be using a spyglass.

Man, I would not live in the 18th century for anything.

From:

selenak

What are his sources, btw?

Valory for noticing in 1740 that Fritz might be short sighted, the Prince de Ligne for Fritz mistaking one Austrian noble for another when Joseph's entourage is being presented to him during the Neisse meeting, letters from Fritz from 1780 saying "my eyes have become stupid", and the receipts for the glasses from the royal household papers starting with 1747. Also those spectacles and for that matter spyglasses still existing, which is presumably how they could be investigated for their varying strengths.

Catt: I only have wiki as a source, too, re: his own eyesight.

You mean because he knew the text almost by heart and only needed a bit of prompting?

That, and when you're in a tent in the later afternoon, evening or night - i.e. the times when Catt usually was called for - in an era where electricity isn't a thing, gas light isn't yet, either, and you're stuck with candles and oil lamps for illuniation, then the light situation isn't too well. Even if your eyesight is reasonably good, it would be natural to hold any book or letter close to read it.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Thank you for the sources!

Catt: I only have wiki as a source, too, re: his own eyesight.

Yeah, what I'm thinking is that if he went totally blind, it might have been cataracts or glaucoma or something, and it might have started very late in life, and he might have had perfectly fine vision before that, i.e. when he started writing his memoirs. (Though as you point out, he might have been prevented from editing in those final years.) But seeing as we have no dates for either, this is all speculation.

Even if your eyesight is reasonably good, it would be natural to hold any book or letter close to read it.

That is an excellent point and just highlights how spoiled a denizen of the modern age I am. ;)