cahn | Frederick the Great discussion post 12

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From:

mildred_of_midgard

That big a difference between 1965 and 1972, huh? Interesting. (My post-1815 history is about as strong as Fritz's spelling.)

This is is one way of saying "Don't be like Fritz, you don't want to pay the human price"

Yes. Yes, it is. I didn't know that Joseph was going down that road, though it makes perfect sense.

Which is handwritten by Fritz, and thus really terribly spelled.

Haha, an unreliable (but plausible) secondary source tells me that his ministers had to read his orders out loud to figure out what on earth he was trying to say.

he would, on this occasion, have been in dire need of someone to clean his dirty laundry again.

Ha! Go MT.

From:

selenak

That big a difference between 1965 and 1972, huh?

The Auschwitz trials in Frankfurt start in 1965. (As opposed to the Nuremberg Trials, these aren't conducted by the former Allies but by German courts. Big difference in terms of what they say about and to the population.) In 1967, student demonstrations explode all over Germany. Well, they do that everywhere, but in Germany it comes with a specific rejection of not just the previous generation but the entire mentality that went into it. Also, Vietnam happens, and changes the perception of the Americans among the younger Germans from "nation of democracy, showing us how it's done, and they have rock'n roll, too" to "imperialists". Then young activist Beate Klarsfeld slaps Chancellor Kiesinger (former NSDAP member) in public. Then Germany votes for the first time since the Weimar Republic a Social Democrat Chancellor into office, who governs in a coalition with a small party of moderates, which means this is the first German goverment ever where no coalition member is a conservative of any calibre. And that's when the 70s start. So yes. Big, big social changes and mentality changes and challenging of previous certainties.

Yes. Yes, it is. I didn't know that Joseph was going down that road, though it makes perfect sense.

When your role model is, among so many other things, a famous wit who doesn't care whose feelings he hurts, and you think he's the coolest....

Ha! Go MT.

My reaction precisely. So do we think she did read Voltaire's trashy tell all in her spare time, did one of the Austrian enovys or spies report the quip in the early 1750s, or was that just coincidence?

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Aaahhh, thank you for the 1960s German history rundown. Everything I know about the 1960s comes from one US history course in junior year of high school. ;)

When your role model is, among so many other things, a famous wit who doesn't care whose feelings he hurts, and you think he's the coolest....

Yup. And yeah, we've seen people complaining about this trait of Fritz's since at least the 1730s, maybe the 1720s.

So do we think she did read Voltaire's trashy tell all in her spare time

Well, the memoirs weren't published until 1784 (

cahn, MT died in 1780), so if she was reading anything, it was that anonymous 1752 pamphlet. But I don't believe the laundry line is in the memoirs, and it's probably not in the pamphlet. For reasons of anonymity if nothing else. Since my source says Voltaire was bruiting it about Potsdam at the time, I'm betting on an envoy or spy.

Edited Date: 2020-02-27 09:22 pm (UTC)

From:

selenak

Yup. And yeah, we've seen people complaining about this trait of Fritz's since at least the 1730s, maybe the 1720s.

I meant to say when in the other post you reported young Fritz having a go at Gundling as well instead of seeing him as a fellow victim: I think what happened is a classic case of Fritz (and for that matter, Wilhelmine, in a slightly lesser degree but still) developing sarcasm and humor as a defense mechanism. And also because they enjoy it, of course, but it's still something that happened under pressure and became a weapon.

Now, on the one hand they grew up in an abuse situation. (Several of them.) But on the other, they're also near the top of the social order in their world, and once Fritz gets to the top, he never, ever seems to grasp there's a difference between punching up and punching down as far as humor is concerned. Not least because if you're King and you're not talking about your fellow monarchs, you're always punching down. Voltaire is a bit of an exception in that Fritz certainly sees him as the superior writer and wit, and Voltaire himself certainly doesn't see himself as lower in any type of hierarchy, but when things go from bad to worse, it's still Fritz who has the power to burn Voltaire's writings (twice) and get him arrested in neutral territory. After that, I doubt any intellectual would have dared to seriously argue with Fritz.

(Gottsched excepted. You were a brave man, Gottsched.)

But to go back to Crown Prince Fritz: it would have been great if he'd felt some empathy with the non family member who'd become his father's other favourite punching bag. But I didn't really expect it. The odds were too much staked against poor Gundling here: German scholar, FW made him President of the Academy precisely to mock it, not to encourage the arts, FW keeps him around all the time, and lastly, he's the one person FW will even approve young Fritz mocking. I'm so sorry, Gundling. Having a street named after you in Potsdam these days is no compensation for what must have been a hellish life, though I hope Stade and the others were right and you managed to carve out some safe private space with your wife.

What was true for King Fritz is of course doubly true for Archduke and then Emperor Joseph, who outranks even other monarchs at least in theory: any joke at someone else's expense is by necessity punching down. Relieving pressure via humor is something that's understandable on the one hand, but on the other given his social situation just not possible in a way that doesn't end up in him hurting people who can't talk back. And I think that's why visitors like De Lyunes put such an emphasis on MT being "gracious to everyone" however she feels about them in their reports. It sounds like a pretty meaningless social courtesy but in this kind of world, it's really not.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I think what happened is a classic case of Fritz (and for that matter, Wilhelmine, in a slightly lesser degree but still) developing sarcasm and humor as a defense mechanism. And also because they enjoy it, of course, but it's still something that happened under pressure and became a weapon.

once Fritz gets to the top, he never, ever seems to grasp there's a difference between punching up and punching down as far as humor is concerned.

I agree completely. The humor/sarcasm, like so many other things Fritz does, is quite clearly a defense mechanism that he never got rid of. And no, I wouldn't expect it either, not from him.

One thing that I'm pretty sure of about Fritz is that he continued feeling threatened and in need of weapons long after the reason for feeling so threatened was gone. This is basic trauma psychology. And that's part of why he kept breaking out the weapons he'd developed in childhood for the rest of his life. Yes, part of it is because being witty is fun, and partly it's just a knee-jerk habit at this point, and he was unable to grasp that this is not a good thing to do, but people in general have an incredibly difficult time letting go of whatever got them through a crisis, even when they have self-awareness that this is hurting more than helping in the current situation, far more self-awareness than he had. And it so happens that what got Fritz through his crisis was attacking. And he remains a pro-active and reactive attacker for the rest of his life, in every domain of his life.

I'm so sorry, Gundling. Having a street named after you in Potsdam these days is no compensation for what must have been a hellish life, though I hope Stade and the others were right and you managed to carve out some safe private space with your wife.

This.

It sounds like a pretty meaningless social courtesy but in this kind of world, it's really not.

Yes. When I moved from student to instructor, there was a bit of a lag before I discovered that I *could not* engage in the same kind of banter with my own students that I could with my fellow students. And I still wish I could track down the students who fell into that lag and apologize! Had I been an absolute monarch at the very top of the hierarchy, there's a good chance I never would have figured this out.

From:

cahn

OK, remind me, who was Gottsched?

Voltaire is a bit of an exception in that Fritz certainly sees him as the superior writer and wit, and Voltaire himself certainly doesn't see himself as lower in any type of hierarchy, but when things go from bad to worse, it's still Fritz who has the power to burn Voltaire's writings (twice) and get him arrested in neutral territory.

Voltaire: Eh, Fritz may be able to get me arrested, but I'm still superior to him, because I am ~Voltaire~ and he is only Fritz. The only person who I might concede might be above me is Émilie, and even she didn't work as ~hard~ as I did, clearly, because my stuff is much more interesting than hers. Like, who really cares about fire, anyway? Not me!

Poor Gundling :(

It sounds like a pretty meaningless social courtesy but in this kind of world, it's really not.

MT <3333333 (And the fact that she grew up relatively un-traumatized!)