Frederick the Great discussion post 11
Feb. 7th, 2020 09:43 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahnIn our last installment, our heroes found that Henri de Catt's memoirs, a major source for current biographers of Frederick the Great, are not to be trusted!!
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rheinsberg
rheinsbergcahn
Re: Fritz as a writer: an early Victorian take
Date: 2020-02-22 06:12 pm (UTC)Courtesy of a Kind person pointing me the way to Fritz and MT related documents, I can tell you your fictional Fritz quote has a solid canonical basis. Fritz‘ idea of a pep talk on 27th April 1745:
„Just think that even the Queen of Hungary, a woman, has not given up hope when her enemies had arrived at the walls of Vienna, when they had conquered her richest provinces – and you don’t want to show as much courage as this woman, and in a moment, too, when we haven’t lost a single battle and made a single loss!“
Love the "Enemies had conquered her richest provinces". Whoever could he mean? Also, note that when Wilhelmine meets "this Woman" of courage later that same year, it's the most dire betrayal...
Re: Fritz as a writer: an early Victorian take
Date: 2020-02-23 05:25 am (UTC)Love the "Enemies had conquered her richest provinces". Whoever could he mean?
Masterful use of the generic noun, Fritz. :P
I'm most interested in "her enemies had arrived at the walls of Vienna." Had any non-Prussians arrived at the walls of Vienna? Because I know Fritz briefly managed to get a small Prussian force uncomfortably close to Vienna without ever being a serious threat, but describing it as "at the walls" would be some serious self-aggrandizement. But if the Bavarians and French managed it, then okay.
Who's he pep talking, btw?
Just think that even the Queen of Hungary, a woman
The Queen of Hungary, a WOMAN.
Also, note that when Wilhelmine meets "this Woman" of courage later that same year, it's the most dire betrayal...
Fritz: "I'm allowed to make himself look good by giving the Austrian devil her due, but no one's allowed to have genuine sympathy and liking for anyone but meeeee."
I look forward to whatever other Fritz & MT goodies this latest resource may provide!
Re: Fritz as a writer: an early Victorian take
Date: 2020-02-23 10:41 am (UTC)This is how he summarizes Silesia 1:
MT’s Dad dies.
Fritz: really really wants Prussia & Austria to team up against the French (editor believes this claim of his in a letter to FS completely), and when not hearing any offers in that regard, kidnaps Silesia to enforce his offer of „protection“ to FS and MT.
MT: No, you gangster. Go to hell, and take your protection racket with you.
Editor: „Friedrich war erschüttert über so viel Hass.“ („Friedrich was stunned by so much hatred.“)
He also says that cunningly, Austrian propagandists painted Fritz as a ruthless robber re: Silesia. I’m not sure where the cunning and the progaganda lie in that one, editor.
More seriously, this editor is probably right that Fritz did not expect a) MT to fight back and b) MT to have any say in this at all, and was basing what little effort he made to come to terms with the Austrians before invading on his impression of Franzl as someone who would compromise. And go for the protection racket, since the Duke of Bavaria making a French-supported go at the Imperial Throne was indeed in the cards already, despite everyone having signed the Pragmatic Sanction.
The 1745 pep talk which opens the second volume, which is why it caught my eye while quickly browsing, is directed at Podewils, though having gone back to the beginning, I haven't ascertained whether it's the same Podewils who was the Prussian Ambassador giving Fritz the "MT, hot or not?" report. If it is, I can't help but wonder whether Podewils had some fears about ending up as a hostage in Vienna and this being Fritz' reply.
MT: As if I'd go after an ambassador. What do you think I am, a Prussian monarch?
Re: Fritz as a writer: an early Victorian take
Date: 2020-02-23 10:51 am (UTC)Oh, good! That's the impression on which I based my decision to buy it.
To his credit, he does this with both Catt and Wilhelmine, as opposed to questionmarking Wilhelmine and giving Catt a pass.
Oookaay. That's...progress in the wrong direction. But at least he's equal opportunity gullible!
Being starry-eyed in 1976 is indeed odd.
He also says that cunningly, Austrian propagandists painted Fritz as a ruthless robber re: Silesia. I’m not sure where the cunning and the progaganda lie in that one, editor.
??
With you on that!
More seriously, this editor is probably right that Fritz did not expect a) MT to fight back
If Blanning's Fritz quotes (to come in next write-up) can be trusted (like, at all), this was definitely the case.
on his impression of Franzl as someone who would compromise
And I think I remember you saying Franzl did want to compromise?
MT: As if I'd go after an ambassador. What do you think I am, a Prussian monarch?
Ahahaha. MT gets the best lines! "You gangster." :P
Re: Fritz as a writer: an early Victorian take
Date: 2020-02-24 02:45 pm (UTC)True. I can now tell you he also quotes Fritz' various war memoirs without a question mark. Except for Mollwitz; there, he adds Schwerin's account. To be fair, we also get gems like the Venetian ambassador Errizzo reporting that MT in the September of 1745 (i.e. when she's about to meet Wilhelmine and see Franzl crowned said the following about Fritz: "(Friedrich) she called a prince who, despite the ease with which he breaks his word - and that he does so can't be called a minor flaw - can't be denied to possess a great acumen, a comprehensive talent and a relentless occupation with his duties as a ruler. As a general, he adds to these qualities an always alert vigilance, which she judges to be absolutely essential for the profession."
So, by 1745, they seem to see each other thusly:
Fritz: She's courageous and determined, despite being a woman.
MT: He's lying liar who lies, but also a smart, capable workoholic and an A plus general.
(Zimmermann: But Fritz NEVER BROKE HIS WORD! NEVER EVER!!!! I can't emphasize this enough in my "Fragments!" And he was always gallant to women! You should have married him, not that gloating guy from Lorraine!!!)
And I think I remember you saying Franzl did want to compromise?
He did suggest it, though in the second Silesian war, not in the first, and not in public; in public, he and MT presented a united front.
Re: Fritz as a writer: an early Victorian take
Date: 2020-02-24 03:14 pm (UTC)MT: He's lying liar who lies, but also a smart, capable workoholic and an A plus general.
Sounds about right!
And he was always gallant to women!
Brief pause while I ask Zimmermann what he's smoking and if he can share, 'cause it sounds like the good stuff.
You should have married him, not that gloating guy from Lorraine!!!)
Now I feel sorry for Frau Zimmermann (if there was one), if he thinks Fritz is better husband material than Franzl. UM!
Also, all this talk of how much less bloodshed there would have been if MT and Fritz had married keeps reminding me of the ancient Greeks. For lo, this happened:
Medea: *saves Jason's ass once a week*
Jason: *abandons her*
Medea: *kills everybody*
Medea: *kills her own kids*
Greeks: Man, Jason sucked. So much bloodshed could have been prevented if she'd been luckier in the husband department. This calls for a fix-it fic.
Achilles: Hi! I'm your new husband.
Greeks: So much less bloodshed!
Self: Suuuuure. I mean, if by "less" you mean "different," sure!
I honestly can't decide whether a good marriage or a bad marriage would have been bloodier. Scenario 1: they team up against their many enemies. Scenario 2: Marital warfare.
I mean, sure, a lot of these stories take place in the Elysian Fields, but honestly, if there's one power duo I would trust to bloody up the Elysian Fields...
Other heroes: We're already dead! You can't kill us again!
Medea: I'm a witch. Wanna bet?
Achilles: I fought a river once!
Re: Fritz as a writer: an early Victorian take
Date: 2020-02-24 05:25 pm (UTC)Achilles: Hi! I'm your new husband.
Waaaaait, I thought I knew my Greek myths but I didn't know about this fix-it, tell me more? (I guess, now that I think on it, my Greek lit, as opposed to myths, is rather patchy.)
Re: Fritz as a writer: an early Victorian take
Date: 2020-02-25 09:30 am (UTC)Also, the Greek corpus is huge, and there are always myth surprises out there waiting for you. :)
power couples of the ancient world
Date: 2020-02-24 06:43 pm (UTC)In any case, seeing as Achilles told Odysseus during the later's trip through the underworld he'd give all his post mortel glory in the underworld for the life of a living farmer, and that Medea actually could raise (some) of the dead, I could see a possible deal. Then again, Medea strikes me as too cautious to go for a guy famous for his short temper as any kind of long term ally, let alone husband. I mean, look at how she secured herself a safe haven in Athens before committing her bloody revenge in Corinth. And no way would she put up with playing second fiddle to Patroklos!
Now I feel sorry for Frau Zimmermann (if there was one), if he thinks Fritz is better husband material than Franzl. UM!
Indeed!
Re: power couples of the ancient world
Date: 2020-02-25 02:16 am (UTC)(Have not read the Argonautica since college, but am still boggling at this ship all these many years later.)
Now, I'm not comparing MT to Medea, but it's the same "He was the MAN! She was the WOMAN!" logic for what makes a good marriage.
And no way would she put up with playing second fiddle to Patroklos!
Hahaha. Maybe they could make it work in some kind of "separate spheres" arrangement? I'm getting the urge to write this, but sigh, I cannot write these days, so I'll add it to my wishlist.
ETA: Meant to add, my current favorite power duo is you + me: librarian + reader! Zimmermann vs. Münchow is only the latest and greatest of our output. :D
Re: Fritz as a writer: an early Victorian take
Date: 2020-02-24 05:14 pm (UTC)MT: He's lying liar who lies, but also a smart, capable workoholic and an A plus general.
She's courageous and determined, despite being a woman,
and my sister is absolutely not allowed to have lunch with her(I know you said this upthread, but I just have to repeat it at every opportunity because Friiiiiiiitz)More seriously, this is actually kind of amazing as fallout of the Catt diary -- that we were all so sure that Fritz was horrible about MT, but it seems like at this point at least that primary sources don't seem to have anything super negative about her yet, it was just in Catt's memoirs??
(Zimmermann: But Fritz NEVER BROKE HIS WORD! NEVER EVER!!!! I can't emphasize this enough in my "Fragments!" And he was always gallant to women! You should have married him, not that gloating guy from Lorraine!!!)
lolololol Zimmerman would totally be the fic-writer who woobifies all the villains :D
in public, he and MT presented a united front.
Franzl/MT, my OTP <3 (Franzl, you should just have stayed away from the other ladies!)
Re: Fritz as a writer: an early Victorian take
Date: 2020-02-25 02:25 am (UTC)There's also Lehndorff's (I think?) account of Fritz holding forth to a captive audience on how awful women in general are and how they smell bad, and everyone fleeing as soon as dinner was over. Which
lolololol Zimmerman would totally be the fic-writer who woobifies all the villains :D
OMG you're right!
Re: Fritz as a writer: an early Victorian take
Date: 2020-02-25 02:19 am (UTC)True. I can now tell you he also quotes Fritz' various war memoirs without a question mark.
Taking Fritz at face value is pretty special.
Except for Mollwitz; there, he adds Schwerin's account.
Well, that's good!
MT: He's lying liar who lies, but also a smart, capable workoholic and an A plus general.
Also, wait, weren't we having a discussion a few months ago about how people were getting on MT's case for not being chill enough to say positive things about Fritz like he did to her? Perhaps they're not reading enough ambassador reports.
Re: Fritz as a writer: an early Victorian take
Date: 2020-02-25 05:57 pm (UTC)Re: Fritz as a writer: an early Victorian take
Date: 2020-02-24 04:58 pm (UTC)*chokes* FRITZ! I also choked at the "Enemies" bit, oh Fritz.
(Also, Wilhelmine! >:( )
Re: Fritz as a writer: an early Victorian take
Date: 2020-02-24 06:48 pm (UTC)(He also wanted the Duke of Bavaria and later rival Emperor to march direclty towards Vienna, but Karl Albrecht basically said, um, you first, mate, you first. Another reason why MT not appeasing Fritz paid off for her despite her losing Silesia is that the conclusion Europe drew from the Austrian War of Succession that if you're not Fritz, you do not mess with MT.)
Re: Fritz as a writer: an early Victorian take
Date: 2020-02-25 02:08 am (UTC)*cough* I thought he might be up to a little self-aggrandizement. Thank you for confirming.
Fritz, it's nice that you managed to get a small body of troops that close, I'm sure it's great for propaganda, but they were never actually a threat according to any of my reading. You're not exactly "the Turks before Vienna."