Announcing Rheinsberg: Frederick the Great discussion post 10

[cahn]

So for anyone who is reading this and would like to learn more about Frederick the Great and his contemporaries, but who doesn't want to wade through 500k (600k?) words worth of comments and an increasingly sprawling comment section:

We now have a community, rheinsberg, that has quite a lot of the interesting historical content (and more coming regularly), organized nicely with lots of lovely tags so if there's any subject you are interested in it is easy to find :D

Comments

Peter Keith

[mildred_of_midgard]

Detective work continues!

First, a request for subdetective selenak. Remember when we were wondering where Jägerhof was, but it was ungoogleable? You bringing to my attention that it was converted to a bank in 1765 suddenly gave me two search terms that were extreeemely helpful in narrowing down the possibilities. I've uploaded a volume called Daheim to our library. Can you check the first paragraph on page 472 and tell us if you manage to extract any relevant info?

Is it in fact the site on the corner of Jäger- and Oberwallstrasse where there used to be a royal hunting lodge? (My German skimming abilities, /o\. I haven't Google translated any of this, as I don't feel like retyping it manually.) Per Google Maps, that street corner is pretty close to the Tiergarten, which used to be a royal hunting ground (as I think that article may be trying to tell me in its German words).

Second!

The editor of the Lehndorff diaries is kind enough to provide names and family relations in the index to the third volume, which means much of our work on the Katte family was redundant, lol. :P But it still ended up being useful that we did the legwork ourselves, because it was a key part of me putting together the Katte family trees, which contain far more than the index provides.

So! Guess what Peter's two sons' names are. (I had already decided what I was going to name them if they made it into the fic, and I was spot on to 18th century naming practices.)

Clues: Peter's full name is Peter Karl Christoph, and his father-in-law's name is Friedrich Ernst.

Well, I had decided that the firstborn, born in the early 1740s, absolutely had to be a Friedrich, for two reasons, and also that there was going to be a Karl or Christoph, and one of the kids was going to have Ernst as a second name.

Btw, it does not escape me that Hans Heinrich von Katte's first son to be born after FW becomes king is a Friedrich Wilhelm, and the next one is a Friedrich Albrecht Wilhelm. And that whole family does the mixing of family names on the father's and mother's sides: Hans is a Katte name and Hermann a Wartensleben name, for example. So that's partly where I was getting my naming practices from.

So, first index entry for the von Keith sons: Friedrich; second: Karl Ernst. 

Called it! (I admit I was thinking of making the one a Friedrich Ernst so the other could be a Karl Emil, but only as an inside joke that exactly two people would get. ;) )

I don't actually have dates on birth order, but the only one with details on his life in the index is Friedrich. He may simply have been the more intelligent and/or ambitious one, but he may actually have been the firstborn.

The possible older son, Friedrich v. Keith, son of Peter Karl Christoph and Louisa Origana (now the third spelling of that name I've seen), is listed as "preuss. Leg.-Rat 1768, Gesandter am sardin. Hof 1774." Envoy to the Sardinian court, then, and Google tells me the former is Legationsrat, which is some kind of foreign service position.

But anyway, selenak, check out the index in volume 3 if you're ever wondering who someone Lehndorff mentions is. It's much better than the index to volume 1. (I wonder if that was by reader request too.) It's practically cheating by our existing standards, but it's such efficient cheating. :D

Re: Peter Keith

[selenak]

Detective Mildred, here's what it says: ..we could call our article "From Jägerhof to Reichsbank". For the entire terrain on which it (the Reichsbank) stands, with its surrounding territory, used to be fiscal property. In its closest proximity, there used to be the prince elector's "garden of wood" - Holzgarten (haven't heard that term before, btw - , after which a still existing street leading up to the bank is named, and at the place where it (the bank) itself stands, there used to be the first prince-elector-ly (sorry about the bad, made up adjective, in German, "kurfürstlich" sounds cool), then royal Jägerhof, at the corner of the called after it Jägerstraße crossing the Oberwallstraße. But when Frederick the Great had finished his titanic struggle with the Hubertusburg peace, he addressed the thought of restoring the destroyed inner wealth of his country with all his energy, and as the best means for the improvement of industry and trade he recognized the founding of a Prussian bank. Thus, he gave up the Jägerhof, and on its grounds only two years later, in 1765, the bank rose.

Which of course connects with Lehndorff's diary entry re: Frau v. Keith getting a pension instead of Jägerhof, and also with the other diary entry I quoted above re: the need for the King to do something about the destroyed economy.

Also, good to know about the sons! I have to wonder whether any Prussian noble dared to name their kid "Franz" "Joseph" for "Theresia" during those years...

Re: Peter Keith

[mildred_of_midgard]

Perfect, thank you! Between the reader and the librarian, we've now tracked down Peter's residence. :D I've also probably walked right past that corner, never knowing. Looks like the building itself no longer exists, but here's a 1900 picture.

cahn, O gracious salon hostess, thank you so much for asking who Lehndorff was! I never would have went looking for his diaries if you hadn't, and selenak wouldn't have had access to at least volumes 2 and 3, even if it occurred to her to read volume 1 on her own sometime.

Truly, the alchemy is magical and DW is an earthly paradise!

I have to wonder whether any Prussian noble dared to name their kid "Franz" "Joseph" for "Theresia" during those years...

Ahahaha, well, only the ones that wanted a vacation in Magdeburg.

Re: Peter Keith

[selenak]

Alas, I just realised that Peter and Lehndorff can't toast their wives and Kids together, because Lehndorff doesn't get married until after Peter's death! (In 1758.) Peter could encourage Lehndorff to get married and have kids in the first place, though, despite Cousin K. having gotten away. (And the eternal Heinrich pining.) He could give him the "move on" speech?

Re: Peter Keith

[mildred_of_midgard]

See, this is why we all need to do mini-chronologies on our subjects of interest!

I like your idea of the "move on" speech. Peter is significantly older and more experienced, after all, and can do a bit of mentoring. In keeping with the line in Lehndorff's diary after Peter's death, where he says Peter was a man of merit who could serve as an example to others. :) Follow that example, Lehndorff!

By the way, per Kloosterhuis' citations, the obituary that Lehndorff says the Academy of Sciences is going to put out does survive, in a private publication. I haven't been able to track it down, but I'd been wondering if it was out there, and I'm glad to know it is.

Re: Peter Keith

[selenak]

Aw, that‘s lovely. Maybe we will manage to track it down one day. Along with Martin von Katte‘s unpublished book about Hans Herrmann.

Peter is significantly older and more experienced, after all, and can do a bit of mentoring.

Indeed, and remember Lehndorff in the early 50s still having day-dreams about the King as a father figure (his own father died right after Lehndorff was born, he never knew him), which, post Hotham, he finally gives up? Could also be because he found an actual mentor!

Re: Peter Keith

[mildred_of_midgard]

Aww, I like that. Peter's definitely in a position to sympathize and give good advice. And in his case, he also kept his head down and did a good job at the tasks he was given long enough, and the King started to pay him some attention, even if not everything he'd hoped for, so there's that glimmer of hope too.

Maybe we will manage to track it down one day. Along with Martin von Katte‘s unpublished book about Hans Herrmann.

Life goals!

Re: Peter Keith

[mildred_of_midgard]

The Peter Keith write-up is up, with an insane amount of detail. I actually cut out a lot of stuff on the history of the Jägerhof site, which I spent way too much time today reading up on. :P

What I did do that was interesting was go looking through Kloosterhuis for anything on Peter Keith, since he's our best source guy for the escape attempt. I got some more dates, names of parents, etc. which is excellent, but the really interesting thing is this:

He's the only person I've ever seen claim that we don't know the first name or identity of the younger page Keith brother who betrayed the escape attempt, and he doesn't even refer to the name Robert. He speculates that's probably Georg Friedrich Wilhelm (1713-1755), or possibly Johann Friedrich (1714-1793). I did not realize there was any doubt on this subject! He cites a Lieutenant von Keith (George) who seems to be in good standing with FW in May 1740 as evidence that crown's evidence brother Keith seems to have had an honorable career as an officer after 1740.

He also writes, "Sein Bruder Peter, an dessen Schicksal Mutter Vigilantia von Keith König Friedrich II. in einer Supplik vom 23. August 1740 erinnert hatte, kehrte im Oktober 1740 nach Berlin zurück."

Now, tell me if I'm interpreting this right, selenak: he's implicitly giving the mother credit for getting Fritz to summon Keith back to Berlin? And implying that Fritz had forgotten about him until reminded?

Because in the political correspondence, Fritz is already on July 7 writing to someone in Hanover to summon Peter back. Hans Heinrich's promotion got priority, evidently, happening in late June, but it doesn't look like Fritz forgot Peter, either.

In other news, like Carlyle, Kloosterhuis says Wilhelmine is way off on the dates of when Peter got transferred to Wesel. Wilhelmine places it circa 1728, 1729 at best, and says it was when he first got his commission. Kloosterhuis cites a letter indicating that Keith was with Fritz in Berlin all the way until January 1730, and believes he may already have been a lieutenant (which Carlyle is certain of). I had been imagining two years of banishment, and need to revise that.

I did wonder why there was so much Keith/Katte overlap in Zeithain, but couldn't tell if it was artistic license (like the date of the Petronella affair) or something he knew from Kloosterhuis that I didn't. This actually does have implications for my Katte+Keith interactions in various AUs that I need to think through. (Going with Wilhelmine's chronology for the sake of the story is still an option, but I need to decide which chronology works better for me.)

(You know how useful it would be if I knew German and we all had better French? I could read Kloosterhuis and Lehndorff on my own, we could all read Catt's diary and reams of correspondence, not to mention satiric-erotic poetry...sigh. But I must say, we're doing a pretty good job of detective work even with our handicaps!)

Re: Peter Keith

[selenak]

Now, tell me if I'm interpreting this right, selenak: he's implicitly giving the mother credit for getting Fritz to summon Keith back to Berlin? And implying that Fritz had forgotten about him until reminded?

Yep, that's what the sentence says - and implies.

Re: Wilhelmine's dating - wouldn't be surprised. She's writing ten to fifteen years later, about someone she didn't know very well, who to her was only peripherically involved in the big catastrophe, and without access to state archives to countercheck.

Re: Peter Keith

[mildred_of_midgard]

Thank you, that's what I thought. I wanted to check before I got indignant on Fritz's behalf. He remembered!

Agree re Wilhelmine. It's perfectly understandable. I just need to decide whether I want two years of banishment or seven months for fic purposes. It occurs to me that the latter means I can get my OT3 together without having to go AU!

Re: Peter Keith

[mildred_of_midgard]

Aha! I had wondered where this description of Peter had come from: "medium height, straight, thin, brown, a little pallid, and squint-eyed."

Well, Lavisse just told me it was from FW's attempt to get Peter arrested in London! And he linked me to Preuss, whom we conveniently already had in the library (see, I knew he was going to be useful for primary sources!), and sure enough, the sourcebook to volume 2, page 157, FW writes to his staatsminister in London, September 19, 1730: "Von Natur ist derselbe mittelmäßig, doch schmal und mager; etwas blaß von Gesichte, hat hellbraune Haare und schielet stark." [ETA: Koser, contra Preuss, says that should read "Von Statur", not "Von Natur".]

I don't care if Lavisse has inadequate sympathy for teenage abuse victim Fritz, he's <3 about primary sources! [Besides, he has much more than Mitford.]

Also, yay for the ability to edit Rheinsberg posts. ;)

Re: Peter Keith

[mildred_of_midgard]

Okay, so I have to share this hysterical piece of sensationalist gossip. While looking through Thiébault on the MT marriage AU (which I never did find), I ran into this.

It's a footnote that the editor of our edition says the editor of the third edition inserted. Our editor says he's reproducing it without comment, since he has no idea what third editor's sources or documents may be.

This is because practically every word is a lie!

Behold the tabloids in their full glory:

Peter went to Portugal, but even that wasn't far enough away from the clutches of FW. Only the vast wildernesses of North America were enough.

Me: Lehndorff! You forgot to mention this! I guess it wasn't as important as Ireland or Scotland in the list of places Peter hid from FW.

He embarked happily, full of hopes, in order to throw himself at the feet of his prince.

Me: I'm not sure if he embarked from Portugal, but okay, sure. He might have. And the rest checks out.

"Quelle surprise!" [Actual quote.] Fritz refuses to admit him into his presence!

Me: I mean, it's possible he couldn't get an audience, but from all my documentary evidence, it looks like Fritz just wasn't in Berlin when Peter arrived, and only passed through briefly on his way to Silesia a month later, and I'm sure he was super busy. IF this even happened.

Fritz wasn't about to honor a rebellious subject who had encouraged the heir to the throne to disobey the king!

Me: Okay, that's Lehndorff's speculative version, but you might notice all the evidence against it, like the Katte family, and also the fact that Fritz immediately made Peter a Hofstallmeister, which is not a trivial position.

All of Peter's relatives get involved! Including his uncle, Milord Marischal.

Me: OKAY. FIRST OF ALL. I understand the urge to make all the major players related, but I DON'T THINK SO. Peter's family has been in Pomerania for generations, Marischal was born in Scotland. Sorry!

Also, I'm generously going with the "relatives" meaning of "parents" rather than the "parents" meaning, because Peter's father is in fact dead at this point, at least if you believe Kloosterhuis's sources.

But! Peter has a trump card. Throughout all his long and difficult journeys, he's kept a letter with him.

Me: Skimming ahead before laboriously parsing the French one word at a time. Oh, are they talking about the nice letter Fritz writes Peter in the 1750s, twice? Oh, no. They're not.

It was written before the escape attempt, and it very conveniently reads, "May I be taken for a rascal, if I ever forget the proofs of devotion given to me by my friend Keith."

Me: I am SO SURE 18-yo Fritz wrote that and Peter kept it.

Marischal presents it to Fritz, on behalf of his nephew.

Me: You really need to ramp up the drama to 11 here, don't you?

Fritz receives it coldly. "I never would have believed he'd give this up." Tosses it into the fire.

I'll just let this speak for itself.

Peter, consumed by the humiliation, is carried off by an illness. [ETA: I'm not braining well enough to come up with a good English equivalent of "maladie de langueur", but it's clear that the illness was directly caused by the humiliation. Fatal enervation? Something like that. Anyway. Died of heartbreak!]

Me: There's a lot of that going around! December 1756, Peter; January 1758, Fredersdorf; June 1758, AW.

Fritz: I can kill you with my brain displeasure.

No sooner is the victim consumed (literally "immolee"), than the royal displeasure lifts! The widow gets a high-ranking position with the queen, the son gets to be ambassador to Turin.

Me: Well, both those things are true, but they were prefaced by a LOT OF favor to Peter that you're just totally neglecting here.

Son gives up ambition, becomes interested in the arts and literature and charity.

Me: Could be, but nothing about your account so far inspires confidence.

Seriously, this is the equivalent of Voltaire's: "And then her father tried to throw her out the window, and she showed ME the mark on her breast!"

It was so awesome and hilarious, though. At first I thought we had more data on Peter, and then I read it, and I was like, "...I can see why people think Thiébault is so unreliable." And then I realized it wasn't even Thiébault. But I had to share it.