cahn | Frederick the Great discussion post 9

...I leave you guys alone for one weekend and it's time for a new Fritz post, lol!

I'm gonna reply to the previous post comments but I guess new letter-reading, etc. should go in this one :)

Frederick the Great links

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From:

mildred_of_midgard

OMG you did a side-by-side comparison! I wasn't expecting that, but it's brilliant!

Do you mind if I post your write-ups in the same

rheinsberg post with mine (with credit, of course)?

One of her cites for this is mom and Émilie arguing over a Biblical point, which is supposed to show that mom was encouraging of Émilie expressing her own opinion. I dunno, though, it could just be that mom was being resentful and trying to prove Émilie wrong? Unsuccessfully, as it turns out. Anyway, I'm not totally convinced by her here

Omg. As someone whose mother used to argue Biblical points with me as a teenager when I wanted to be a physicist, and threaten to take things away from me if I didn't back down and stop believing in non-literal interpretations of the Bible...I do not find this argument very convincing. Maybe Mom was very supportive and liked a good debate! But mine, who was actually very encouraging of my education by the standards of any 18th century female, felt horribly threatened by any debate.

More evidence required, is what I'm saying.

No sensationalistic gossip here!

Awww. :( :P

Does mention that Voltaire had a whole pile of money (mentions veeeery briefly his government bonds thing, but does not go into detail, which, I guess, this is not a Voltaire bio)

Whereas Bodanis, who's writing a dual biography, gives the episode in great detail to demonstrate how superior Voltaire's intellect is to everyone else, and how taking advantage of other people is heroic. I got a huge Odyssean vibe from his portrayal of Voltaire, like it felt like I was reading Homer fanfic.

she was 'altogether remarkable,' while he could not even make the other understand what mathematics was."

Bodanis gives me the same impression.

I found that Zinsser says Voltaire also calls him a swan, "Mi caro cignio di Padova."

Yes! This was easy to miss, but when I was explaining the swan thing, I mentioned that Voltaire and Fritz both called him a swan. Voltaire started it (he and Algarotti knew each other before Fritz was in the picture), and Fritz picked it up.

Me: Wow!! Wouldn't it be great if I had a place like that where I could talk with people about things I'm interested in ~~or other people have totally gotten me interested in~~, like history and opera and reading pedagogy, and geek out about things -- oh. :D ~~totally calling DW The Earthly Paradise from now on~~

It's been my earthly paradise! And a total sanity-saver.

Zinsser: Probably because he wasn't part of the Académie française because he kept making people angry at him, and was thinking he could slide into it sideways from the Academy of Sciences. Not because he actually liked science.

Oooh. That is some interesting context.

And Émilie is all, "My dude, you really suck at drawing conclusions from experiments."

Yeah, Bodanis gets into the whole mass thing, and all the things that were wrong with Voltaire's experimental methods.

Émilie: Thanks, but I'd way rather be a physicist than a goddess.

You can be both, Émilie. You can be both. \o/ (Though as someone who started out as a physics major before switching to math and computers, I'm with you on the whole wanting to be a physicist thing. :D)

By the way she used a French translation of Wolff that Frederick of Prussia sent to Voltaire "made for him by one of his closest intimates at court." [Suhm?? :D]

Suhm! Look at you knowing things. You know about Lehndorff and Suhm and all sorts of things that you need to be very well informed to know about. (Seriously, two months ago, did even

selenak and I know about Lehndorff or Suhm as anything more than names? We did not!)

Voltaire: I am too old for sexual relationships, being 47 and all, "the twilight of my days." [He lived to be 83.]

Yeah, Voltaire was notoriously pulling the "one foot in the grave" line on people for decades. Fritz, the other one-foot-in-the-grave-for-decades guy, rolled his eyes and said Voltaire would write his (Fritz's) epitaph. He didn't, but he almost did, and he did live to be almost ten years older than Fritz (it's just that he was born almost twenty years before Fritz).

Fritz and Voltaire really don't like what they see in the mirror of each other's eyes, do they?

(Admittedly, I've known since I was a teenager that I would never get along with myself, and during my early twenties realized I needed to start hanging out with people who are approximately one million times more low key than I am, if I want us to not drive each other crazy.)

Voltaire: *has affair with niece*

So this came up in conversation in another corner of the Fritz fandom (mob-boss-fic-writing fan) the day before you posted it, and we were wondering: how shocking or normal was it that Voltaire was having an affair with his niece? Was this something that like, royals could get away with because royals were expected to do a certain amount of inbreeding, or was it like, "Well, it's technically consanguinity, but they're not getting married, and who cares, anyway?"?

Even today, it depends on what country you live in.

Zinsser: *does not quote Fritz about Voltaire's grieving but clearly kinda agrees with him*

What IS it with people insisting there's One True Way to grieve? It's like if you ever move on, people will conclude you never cared in the first place. Let people grieve their own way and rebuild their lives, FFS!

From:

cahn

Yes, please do! I do want to change that last bit slightly to convey better what Zinsser actually said:

Voltaire: It's so saaaaad she was so greeeeeeat I'm the saaaaaddest it's all about meeeeee OK gonna go hang out with Fritz now
Saint-Lambert: *quietly has a breakdown and possibly was permanently affected by her death, and seems like he really loved her*
Zinsser: I like Saint-Lambert a lot more than Voltaire, okay?

(Man, she totally acknowledges Voltaire was a genius and yet... I got the distinct feeling that if she had a time machine she would go back and say, "Émilie. Girlfriend. I know he's the top intellect in Europe and being with him is a ~~dysfunctional~~ rush. But you are too good for him, can't you see that?")

Omg. As someone whose mother used to argue Biblical points with me as a teenager when I wanted to be a physicist, and threaten to take things away from me if I didn't back down and stop believing in non-literal interpretations of the Bible...I do not find this argument very convincing. Maybe Mom was very supportive and liked a good debate! But mine, who was actually very encouraging of my education by the standards of any 18th century female, felt horribly threatened by any debate.

It was a factual point (I forget exactly but something on the order of "was X present at this bit or not?") so not quite the same, but... yeah, I'm sitting there going "maybe she just wanted to prove her daughter wrong?" Because I definitely know people like that!

[will reply to the rest later]

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Okay, done! Original post updated. (It's so nice to be able to do that. Rheinsberg is the best!)

(Man, she totally acknowledges Voltaire was a genius and yet... I got the distinct feeling that if she had a time machine she would go back and say, "Émilie. Girlfriend. I know he's the top intellect in Europe and being with him is a ~~dysfunctional~~ rush. But you are too good for him, can't you see that?")

She's not wrong! Unfortunately, in a society as misogynistic as Émilie's, finding a guy whose intellect is a match for yours (in another domain) and is willing to treat you roughly like an equal, often means settling. I get you, Émilie. I've been there, even without the misogyny.

It was a factual point...so not quite the same

Still. Arguing with your daughter about either fact or interpretation doesn't necessarily mean encouraging her!

From:

cahn

Yeah, I think Zinsser would be happy with Émilie finding someone who maybe wasn't quite up to her intellect but was willing to treat her better than Voltaire :P That is how she looks at Saint-Lambert, I'm pretty sure. Though as I've said, I do kind of wonder if she is too invested in this "I'm going to overturn what everyone thinks" narrative and gives Saint-Lambert more awesomeness than was perhaps his actual due. As here:

Still. Arguing with your daughter about either fact or interpretation doesn't necessarily mean encouraging her!

Right?! I appreciate that she gave us her evidence, that puts her higher than many biographers, but I'm sitting here going "...I don't know that this shows what you claim it shows..."

(After reading this bio, my personal ship is Émilie/Clairaut -- it sounds like they both passionately enjoyed working on math together -- but the lack of anyone ever commenting about this makes it look to me like both of them were only interested in each other for math. Which is probably what I like about it, lol.)