Frederick the Great discussion post 9
Jan. 13th, 2020 09:09 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahn...I leave you guys alone for one weekend and it's time for a new Fritz post, lol!
I'm gonna reply to the previous post comments but I guess new letter-reading, etc. should go in this one :)
Frederick the Great links
I'm gonna reply to the previous post comments but I guess new letter-reading, etc. should go in this one :)
Frederick the Great links
Mr. and Mrs. King: Fritz - Elisabeth Christine: The Correspondance
Date: 2020-01-21 03:01 pm (UTC)Firstly, to end on a positive note, let's get one of the Fritzian speciality condolence letters out of the way.
Madame,
I deplored the death of your brother Prince Albert; but he died as a good man, although he died reckless and without necessity. It has been a while since I warned the Duke of what could not fail to happen; I have often said this to the deceased, but he only followed his own head, and I am surprised that he was not killed a long time ago.
Prince Ferdinand has a bruised knee, but he is going out and doing well. I pity you, Madame, for the sorrow that it is natural for you to feel the death of your loved ones; but these are events for which there is no remedy. I am with esteem, etc
See, if Fritz had died earlier, then we'd have a set up for the perfect Agatha Christie murder mystery. Everyone has a motive! Heinrich is the main and obvious suspect! But really, it was EC!
Except not. I know from Lehndorff's diaries the woman could sometimes lose her temper, but in her few letters towards her husband, she comes across as amazingly sweet-natured. He, in turn, wasn't always like that. Seems they had a regular exchange of delicious fruit grown in their respective residences going, which leads to letters like this:
Madame,
I thank you for the beautiful fruits that you were kind enough to send me. I will eat them to your health, and I count on the fact that that Sans-Souci will not be outdone, and will in turn provide them for Schönhausen. I am with great esteem, etc.
My compliments to Madame Camas.
The most interesting of the not very large collection of letters are those dealing with AW's death. As a reminder, AW was EC's brother-in-law twice over, since he was married to her sister Louise. Who was pregnant at the time of his death with their fourth child.
Sire,
What a sad circumstance makes me take the pen in my hand to tell you of the death of the Prince of Prussia, which happened this morning at half past three in the morning! I offer you my condolences on the death of the prince. First after I learned it, I went here to see how to tell my sister, especially in the circumstances in which she is, so that it does not harm her, and, if it is possible, to keep the fruit she bears. She doesn't know it yet. I recommend her, until she can write herself, to the honor of your good graces and protection, having, after the great loss she has suffered, only you as her support and protector. I'll be at the palace, but my sister doesn't know it yet; the doctor and everything one needs is here. God grant you health, and keep you until the most remote age of human life, for the happiness of your subjects and in particular for that of which all happiness depends on it! I recommend myself in your good graces, and am with the most perfect attachment, complete devotion and all the tenderness imaginable, etc.
Madame,
You have done very well to hide from my sister-in-law the great loss she has just suffered, and I have no doubt that you will use all the circumspection possible to inform her. At the same time, you will say to her that one could not be more devastated by this misfortune than I am, and that I will contribute in all that will depend on me to her happiness, and that by my friendship I will try to soften the heaviness of her loss, as much as such losses can be softened; that I look to her children as my own, and that she can count on me to take the greatest care of them, keeping the image of my poor brother imprinted in the bottom of my heart, where death alone can erase it.
I am, Madame, with great esteem, etc.
As letters from Fritz apropos AW's death go, this one is the least infuriating by far, and the most helpful to the actual recipient.
Sire,
It is with perfect gratitude that I received your letter. Regarding my sister's pregnancy, it is going well, and we have taken every conceivable precaution so that the alteration does not harm her. Doctor and surgeon were there first. She is now halfway there. As my sister is in this state, and besides that in great mourning, I hope that you will allow the Duchess my mother to come to Berlin, and lodge in the castle, and that you will have the grace to give your orders on it. I sincerely promise you that we will not cause the slightest trouble; for myself, I hate it as much as we can hate it, and I have had all my life a horror of it. Surely, I will not do more than is necessary for expenses, and I believe that my mother will be able to content herself with the way I ordinarily live. I avoid all expenses, and cut myself off on everything; but the mourning and the trip never stopped costing me, although everything was done with the greatest economy in the world. You can count on me, you can be sure I will not do anything in the world which you may not like. Your graces and kindness are always too precious to me, and surely it will not be through my fault that I could have the misfortune to lose them; I would not console myself with my life for it, and my conduct is very simple and focused, as everyone can tell you and testify. God grant you health, keep your and give you happiness in all your endeavors! I recommend myself in honor to your good graces and kindness, and remain with the most perfect attachment, complete devotion and all the imaginable tenderness, etc
Madame,
I learned with pleasure the happy deliverance of my sister-in-law. May this child be happier than his uncles!
The plural is interesting here, Fritz. Anyway, he's been in amiable mode towards EC for too long. After she asks him what the newborn kid should be called, we get back to "why is this woman bothering me when I have a war to fight?"
Madame,
As long as my nephew is not called Jacques, Xavier or Joseph, what does it matter? If he was my son, I would call him Charles-Émile; but that is not important. I have the honor to be, etc.
Prince Karl-Emil is is, the only one of the Hohenzollern to be called that. Sadly, he doesn't survive the year. Incidentally, I can guess why not Joseph - MT's son, which is all Fritz knows about him at that point - nor Xavier - very Catholic South German name accociated with Jesuits - but what Fritz' beef with Jacques aka Jakob/James is, I don't know. Not wanting to piss off his one remaining ally the Hannover cousin in England?
Also, Mildred, is there a Charles-Émile/Karl Emil among the boyfriends?
EC's mother dies. Time for a Fritzian condolence letter again. Has he learned how to do it by now?
Madame,
I learned with pain of the death of your mother. I offer you my condolences. She was old and sickly; now, she is sheltered from all the misfortunes that plagues humanity, and however long we live, we take the same path, one a little earlier, the other a little more later. One day we will all be there, when everyone has finished the role they are forced to play in the world.
After all the misfortunes and bad news that have been daily for six years, it is really time that we receive more pleasant ones. I hope this time comes soon, assuring you of all the esteem with which I am, etc.
Granted, if one bears in mind how the deaths of his own loved ones are always a terrible blow that demand universal grief, it's a tad hypocritical, but still, marks for effort, Fritz. You're getting there.
Next: EC has an open leg. This offers our anti hero the chance to a) provide medical advice, and b) write a rare concerned "get well" letter that does not include "live for me!"
Madame,
I was very sorry yesterday to see you in the state you were in. As I judge your illness, I believe that the cause comes from an acrid and corrosive blood. It is imperative that the doctor gives you beverages made of vulnerable herbs and simple, to correct the blood, and then your wound will close soon, and you will be healed. But do not waste time taking this remedy; you have to eat a lot of vegetables, which are all good for the blood, and with this diet I am sure you will heal yourself. But if the doctor doesn't give you these potions, there is a risk that the inflammation will start on your leg overnight, and then the danger could become serious. The advice I give you is crucial for your recovery. Please speak to the doctor; in the meantime, I wish for your recovery, assuring you of the perfect esteem with which I am, etc.
Poor Louise, after her late florishing as the suprise most popular in-law among the entire Hohenzollern clan, dies. Now, since future FW2's first marriage ended and Elisabeth the younger was banished to Stettin, Louise had been raising Elisabeth's and FW2's only daughter Friederike. What shall become of her?
Madame,
I offer you my condolences on the death of your sister and my sister-in-law, whom we have just lost. Her virtue deserves our regrets, but we cannot resuscitate her. There is this poor child who remains of her, who can only find asylum in your home. You would give me great pleasure, if you wanted to take care of her education, as her late grandmother has done so far. You can easily guess the reasons I have for arranging this case. The apartments in the palace will not provide any difficulty, and this can be done under the pretext of your attachment to everything that remains of the late Princess.
I am with all respect, etc.
Note that Fritz does not consider sending little Friederike to her other grandmother, his sister Charlotte. And apparantly nephew FW and wife No.2 aren't an option. "My niece of Holland" is Wilhelmine Minor, AW's now married daughter, his favourite niece.
Madame,
After having carefully examined the palace, there are only the rooms that my niece from Holland occupied that can be given to the little girl; I first have them accommodated for this purpose, and the little girl will be able to move in tomorrow. Those above them would be good as well, but they are cold, and when foreigners of quality come here, we would have to dislodge the little one, which otherwise is not necessary. She can therefore enter it tomorrow. I am, Madame, etc.
Mr. Micromanagement thinking through which rooms are most suitable for a child is oddly...nice. Anyway, EC is not yet done with losing family members. Next, it's the turn of the brother of hers married to Charlotte, "the dear duchess".
Sire,
It is with a heart full of gratitude that I mark my most humble thanks for the gracious attention you have had for me in making me announce with caution the sad news of the death of my dear brother. The part which you take there can be used for my consolation. It is very sad, in the space of two and a half months, to lose a brother and a sister. The dear duchess makes me very sad, knowing the tender attachment she had for my dear brother, and this loss must be very overwhelming. God grant to preserve your days and give you a perfect health, and that you live until the most remote age of the world, for the happiness of all your country, and in particular for her who utterly depends on it, and who is sincerely attached to you, and who is with all the devotion imaginable, etc.
Okay, Fritz. Last chance to write a good consolence letter to EC about a sibling of hers!
Madame,
I rightly feared that the devastation that death has just caused in your family would affect you too deeply, especially because these fatal blows followed each other so closely. But what is left to take? We cannot raise the dead; we can only submit to the eternal order which subjects our friends, relatives and ourselves to the common law. With regard to the Duke, I am convinced that death is a kind of happiness for him, because he was only dragging out the languid remains of his existence; deprived of speech for four weeks, deprived of the action of his arms and legs for a few years, it was dependent on itself, and a spectacle of pity and tenderness for his loved ones. I wish, Madame, that this is the last domestic grief that happens to you, and that the sky watches over your days, being with all possible esteem, etc.
Re: Mr. and Mrs. King: Fritz - Elisabeth Christine: The Correspondance
Date: 2020-01-22 03:02 am (UTC)I'm glad they got to have at least some positive long-distance interactions in the form of exchanging fruit.
Good job improving your condolence letters, Fritz! I'm not sure whether this is a sign of improved skill/emotional maturity or just reflects his differing opinions/lack thereof on the person involved, but nonetheless.
LOL at the Agatha Christie plot. EC would be least suspected but amply motivated! This would be a wonderful reveal.
Also, Mildred, is there a Charles-Émile/Karl Emil among the boyfriends
Not that I know of! I saw this when I was compiling and uploading the letters, and I was hoping you would know what the appeal of this name was all about. I only found one predecessor in the Hohenzollerns, and he doesn't seem like someone Fritz would go for (although an ideal son for FW). I will keep an eye out for possible candidates, though.
but what Fritz' beef with Jacques aka Jakob/James is, I don't know. Not wanting to piss off his one remaining ally the Hannover cousin in England?
Maybe? Total 180 after the war started, if so. And I guess "Jacob" is the eponymous name for the Jacobites, but the claimant who caused the most trouble fifteen years ago was named Charles, and he's still around making occasional noise, so...
I don't know. Fritz's taste in baby names takes me by surprise.
a rare concerned "get well" letter that does not include "live for me!"
Almost certainly, if you ask me, because he's not actually emotionally invested in her living. I suspect his better condolence letters to her are also when he had no emotional investment (unlikely the brother who'd been driving him crazy and he just *needed* to get that rant out of his system to all parties, ring theory be damned).
Mr. Micromanagement thinking through which rooms are most suitable for a child is oddly...nice.
Lol. No coffee bean is too small to be ground!
In addition to all the wonderful content-ful excerpts and summaries you provided, I also wish to present the array of Fritz's excuses for not writing to her, which constitute 15 of 117 of the letters (and don't include the excuses for not visiting her):
I leave you to judge whether, in these conditions, we are able to write long letters.
You will learn by all the news of the day the progress that has been made here, and besides I am led to believe that you do not take much interest in it; so I refer you to public news, begging you to believe me all yours.
I will no longer be able to write to you.
I will only tell you in two words that everything is fine here...I am so overwhelmed with a dreadful headache that it is impossible for me to tell you more.
I don't have time to tell you more.
If I don't write to you often, it won't be my fault, because we have little time traveling.
I have much to do; another time, my letter will be longer.
f I haven't written to you for a long time, it's because I didn't have time for me.
If I hadn't been tired, I would have thanked you myself. However, I will take my time to do it at the first opportunity.
The multitude of cases has prevented me from writing to you so far; It is therefore to take leave of you that I address this letter to you.
I only have time to assure you of my perfect friendship, to tell you that we are all doing very well, and to ask you to return them included to their addresses.
Communication is not yet as free as you think.
I am currently so overloaded with work, that I hardly have a moment left for me; which obliges me to finish my letter.
I would thank you for it in more detail, if the legions of affairs gave me the time.
And of course, the very last letter he wrote to her:
I am very much obliged to you for the vows which you deign to make; but a high fever which I took prevents me from answering you.
De facto unmarried Fritz!
Re: Mr. and Mrs. King: Fritz - Elisabeth Christine: The Correspondance
Date: 2020-01-22 06:23 am (UTC)Re: Mr. and Mrs. King: Fritz - Elisabeth Christine: The Correspondance
Date: 2020-01-22 08:29 am (UTC)re: Baby names - you know what's missing in his "as long as it's not..." list? Francois/Franz. On the one hand, MT's husband. On the other: Voltaire! (Can't decide whether that would be a pro or a con at that point.)
"Ring Theory": explain, please?
Excuses for not writing: ha. (Especially, as Cahn says, given how much he's simultanously writing to everyone else. Including Amalie who is, due to war time, living in close proximity to EC.)
What you said elsewhere about EC having been FW's idea of an ideal wife: on the one hand, yes, that's very apparant. She's utterly devoted, no matter how little of Fritz she gets, she's loyal, when she writes to him "you can count on me, Sire" , she means it. Biographers have often noted that FW's notion of marriage wasn't that of an aristocrat but of a burgher, hence insistence on marital fidelity on both sides and living together, not apart, and Lehndorff, frustrated with his boss, notes more than once she would have been happier as a burgher's wife. A married-to-FW EC would never have questioned his judgment, or used the kids as weapons in marital warfare. And of course they'd been on board with each other's religion.
I'm still not sure the reverse would have worked out, i.e. an SD type of wife for Fritz. Sure, she'd have been fine with living apart, and wouldn't have cared about what he got up to with valets or French intellectuals. But there's no way she'd have put up with playing second fiddle to his mother and sisters. She'd have had very definite ideas about how their heir (whether that potential heir would have been the son of their siblings or maybe the result of a half hearted try at marital life in the early days) should be raised and whom he should marry. And the first time she'd gotten a condolence letter like the one about brother Albrecht from him, marital warfare would have ensued.
Re: Mr. and Mrs. King: Fritz - Elisabeth Christine: The Correspondance
Date: 2020-01-23 06:13 am (UTC)Oh! I found the original comment. Wow, I knew a lot less stuff then :D And it was only a couple of months ago!
Re: Mr. and Mrs. King: Fritz - Elisabeth Christine: The Correspondance
Date: 2020-01-23 09:28 am (UTC)We all knew a lot less then. I was barely there had been more than one Keith, had never heard of Algarotti, and couldn't have named even one Fritz dog. DW: truly the earthly paradise!
Re: Mr. and Mrs. King: Fritz - Elisabeth Christine: The Correspondance
Date: 2020-01-25 10:28 pm (UTC)Depending on whether we count from when I started refreshing myself with Fritz bios before the three of us started chatting (June), or when our magical alchemy began (August)...in June I certainly had forgotten anything I had learned about the Keiths and Algarotti (but because of the bios I know I'd read twenty years ago, I must have learned about them once--all I remember is that there was a Jacobite named Keith, because anything Jacobite related stuck with me), and I doubt I ever knew anything about the names of the dogs, beyond the group name "marquises de Pompadour." By the time we started chatting, though, I had managed to work both Alcmene and Biche into a fic on AO3, so I must have caught up on the dogs quickly. ;)
Before our magical alchemy, though, wow, I was like aware that he had siblings apart from Wilhelmine, and of them, that AW died and Heinrich was a good general, maybe better than Fritz. Extended family? Details on his parents other than the obvious? Nope. Barest outlines of the relationship with Voltaire, and of Fredersdorf (whom, again, I must have learned about 20 years ago, but had to relearn from scratch when I picked up those bios again). Suhm who?
And I actually still believed Katte was executed in front of Fritz's window, and that his last words were "I die for you with joy in my heart," which I STILL haven't found outside Wikipedia.
It's been like a graduate-level history course! It has exceeded my wildest dreams. earthly paradise indeed! <3
Thank you for explaining/reminding! Very useful for rl.
ETA: Just meant to call attention to something in that thread, namely that if you use the term "ring theory" in real life, anyone with a STEM background, like me and
Re: Mr. and Mrs. King: Fritz - Elisabeth Christine: The Correspondance
Date: 2020-01-25 10:19 pm (UTC)Makes sense to me! It reminds me of this passage from a Neal Stephenson novel: "When their discussion of the company’s name consumed more than the fifteen minutes Richard felt it deserved, he pulled some Dungeons & Dragons dice out of his pocket and rolled them to generate the random number 9592." And thus Richard's startup Corporation 9592 is founded.
Excuses for not writing: ha. (Especially, as Cahn says, given how much he's simultanously writing to everyone else. Including Amalie who is, due to war time, living in close proximity to EC.)
Right? I actually went and checked the dates on some of these, and yeah, Suhm and Voltaire and other people are getting nice beefy letters. "I don't have time to write to you because I'm busy writing to more interesting people!" Though it was interesting that sometimes you can tell he really was busy on a given day, but then a few days later you'd see much longer letters to other people and not so much to her.
But there's no way she'd have put up with playing second fiddle to his mother and sisters.
But what I was thinking was that she wouldn't have to. I was thinking he actually would have let her be more of a proper queen, as long as she stayed away from politics. I don't think it's anything like an ideal marriage, no--ideally Fritz doesn't get married, at least in the pre-same-sex marriage era--but he might have liked her as a person (not just a mother) better than EC.
She'd have had very definite ideas about how their heir (whether that potential heir would have been the son of their siblings or maybe the result of a half hearted try at marital life in the early days) should be raised
How different would those ideas have been from his, though? If he wanted his heir educated and cultured and also in the military, how much would she have objected? I'm sure she would have wanted a more extravagant court than he did, but the budget and treatment he did give her as Dowager Queen was evidently to her satisfaction, and I think they could have arrived at an agreement (again, since they did irl). Unless you think that was 100% her being his mother and not any kind of shared values, like the arts.
And the first time she'd gotten a condolence letter like the one about brother Albrecht from him, marital warfare would have ensued.
Haha, well, that would have been interesting. :P
Anyway, no, not an ideal marriage, but maybe better than the first impression EC made. (Of course, a lot has to do with how much Fritz has the marriage forced down his throat in this AU. EC had the deck stacked against her from the beginning, and then it didn't matter how hard she tried.)
Re: Mr. and Mrs. King: Fritz - Elisabeth Christine: The Correspondance
Date: 2020-01-23 03:08 am (UTC)I have always, my dear Marquise, distinguished your late husband as a
a very estimable man, and above all by his attachment to the late King,
my husband of glorious memory whose death plunges me into the most
severe pain. Rest assured that I am very sensitive to the sympathy that
you show and I will always be delighted that having fulfilled all your
duties towards your husband, you are rewarded by all the
possible happiness. These are the feelings that I will always have for you.
Your good Queen: Elisabeth
Re: Mr. and Mrs. King: Fritz - Elisabeth Christine: The Correspondance
Date: 2020-01-25 04:56 am (UTC)Re: Mr. and Mrs. King: Fritz - Elisabeth Christine: The Correspondance
Date: 2020-01-25 10:52 pm (UTC)You mean not scandalized by d'Argens as critic of the church, or not scandalized by the relationship with Babette? Or both?
Because if the former, then one, I only have unreliable modern sources for that; it could have not happened at all. But two, I actually can see a situational difference. At Rheinsberg, EC is interacting with Algarotti in the presence of Fritz, and Algarotti is trying to impress *Fritz*. And Algarotti could apparently be mocking enough to put Lehndorff off wanting to be in the same room with him. So EC's impression of Algarotti is going to be of someone who's highly critical of religion and doesn't mind saying so in the most snarky way possible.
Whereas d'Argens didn't come to Prussia until Fritz was king, i.e. living apart from EC. So any time he interacted with EC, odds are he was paying court to EC specifically, and probably made a point of not gratuitously offending the queen known for her piety.
So all that tells me is that d'Argens could code-switch.
Now, maybe EC loved Algarotti too, but given that Lehndorff didn't, it's quite possible EC *was* shocked by Algarotti.
At any rate, that is a lovely letter, and I'm glad that EC was gracious with the dancer-cum-actress. Reminds me a bit of Melanie Wilkes with Belle Watling.
Re: Mr. and Mrs. King: Fritz - Elisabeth Christine: The Correspondance
Date: 2020-01-22 06:21 am (UTC)and that I will contribute in all that will depend on me to her happiness, and that by my friendship I will try to soften the heaviness of her loss, as much as such losses can be softened; that I look to her children as my own, and that she can count on me to take the greatest care of them,
This is downright nice, really! Especially for Fritz. Especially for AW's death, omg. Not a single "He really sucked and I was so great for putting up with him!!" in there.
Prince Karl-Emil is is, the only one of the Hohenzollern to be called that.
...was Fritz just trolling EC? It is exactly the kind of thing he would do :P "Don't bother me, just name him, uh --" *sees two soldiers, one of whom is named Karl and the other of whom is named Emil -- "Charles-Emile, OK?"
She was old and sickly; now, she is sheltered from all the misfortunes that plagues humanity, and however long we live, we take the same path, one a little earlier, the other a little more later.
Honestly, I think this is pretty great, for Fritz. EC being religious, she could potentially read into it some nice comforting things. (I mean, which he doesn't actually mean! But still.)
Mr. Micromanagement thinking through which rooms are most suitable for a child is oddly...nice.
Yes! I thought it was rather touching too <3
Re: Mr. and Mrs. King: Fritz - Elisabeth Christine: The Correspondance
Date: 2020-01-22 08:41 am (UTC)Says something about Fritz that we regard this as a standard to meet in condolence letters. :) More seriously, what also impresses me is that these reassurances which EC is supposed to give Louise are in fact what Louise needs to hear in this situation. Because her future really entirely depends on Fritz. For all she knows, he could plan on sending her back to Braunschweig (just to save expenses) and just keep future FW2 because he needs an heir. (And that's leaving aside something EC doesn't know about yet, the altered last will in which AW includes the "I want Mina to raise my kids, Louise can get a pension and move elsewhere" stunner.) So Fritz instead of writing one of his usual "woe is me" letters and instead focusing on reassurances to Louise about her and her children is really impressive.
Consideration for little Friederike: including the detail that the upper rooms - which they use as guest quarters for people of rank - are cold (since they're currently unused). As anyone who's ever visited a palace or mansion in months other than the height of summer can tell, "cold" means really cold. (Hence all those big fireplaces.) It's a neat detail showing Fritz' human side, since the only one who is affected by this consideration is really little Friederike. (Who is a girl of questionable parentage, given the state of affairs between FW2 and Elisabeth, and utterly unimportant to the succession.) (Also, great contrast to FW's Spartan way of raising kids.)
Re: Mr. and Mrs. King: Fritz - Elisabeth Christine: The Correspondance
Date: 2020-01-23 06:06 am (UTC)Ah, I... don't think I have visited a palace in months other than summer :) That's really nice. And I hadn't thought to make the contrast to FW, but YES.
Re: Mr. and Mrs. King: Fritz - Elisabeth Christine: The Correspondance
Date: 2020-01-25 11:16 pm (UTC)It is! Well done, Fritz.
(Also, great contrast to FW's Spartan way of raising kids.)
Good job doing the opposite of what was done to you! For once. There's hope for you, Fritz. You just need some therapy! *hugs*