Frederick the Great discussion post 9

[cahn]

...I leave you guys alone for one weekend and it's time for a new Fritz post, lol!

I'm gonna reply to the previous post comments but I guess new letter-reading, etc. should go in this one :)

Frederick the Great links

Comments

Re: Toppings of all types, continued

[selenak]

See answer to Mildred about the fate of the French original manuscript for the 1752 diary (in a word: victim of WWII). 1753 ff still exists, but this particular entry was made in December 1752, and thus we only have Schmid-R's translation from 1907 to go by forever more. I checked out the German phrase again:

"Mein Herz empfindet die ganze Höhe dieses Glücks umso mehr, als ich es lange nicht genossen habe."

"Höhe" is definitely "height". Though we will, of course, never know whether the 1907 translation into German is correct. In any case, what additionally triggers my suspicion about that entry is that a) "lange nicht genossen habe" - "haven't been able to enjoy it for such a long time" - this in a month where he's meeting Heinrich almost daily, so he's clearly not just talking about just seeing him and talking to him; and b) "Polterabend" (i.e. stag night - 1907!editor notes Lehndorff uses the German expression here, perhaps there is no adequate one in French?) - to my knowledge, even in the 18th century, that term is associated with weddings, not moving from one flat to the next. Also, again, entry says they're alone, so how exactly are they celebrating - getting drunk together is i<>possible, I suppose, but come on.

Re: Toppings of all types, continued

[iberiandoctor]

but come on

Yeah, the combination of “my heart feels the whole height of this pleasure”, “haven’t been able to enjoy it for such a long time” and “Stag night” DEFINITELY lends itself to the likely conclusion that they banged all night, a rare occasion! I just add to this the speculation that Fredersdorf bottomed for his tiny albeit well-hung prince XD

Re: Toppings of all types, continued

[mildred_of_midgard]

I realize that was a typo (a confusing one to me at first), but I couldn't help thinking: Fredersdorf is the one person who is very definitely NOT better off starting a family collection in order to succeed at Fritz's court!

The mind boggles trying to imagine Fritz's volcanic reaction.

"It's not my fault, Your Majesty. I have a 'type', and your other self was right there..."

Re: Toppings of all types, continued

[iberiandoctor]

Hahaha, OMG, what a typo! All it was missing was a sausage reference (although actually the sausage was implied ;))

Obviously it was a good thing that Fredersdorf didn’t in fact bottom for Heinrich!! I mean, mostly for Fredersdorf, but also for Heinrich. And also for Fritz, if you figure jealous volcanic reactions aren’t good for the body.

Re: Toppings of all types, continued

[mildred_of_midgard]

Body maybe, but I can only imagine the *psychological* devastation if Fredersdorf betrays him (because that's how he's see it) like that. I'm still hoping we're right that Fredersdorf didn't do anything that Fritz even *saw* as financial betrayal (however unfairly), because after that many years, I suspect that would feel to Fritz like losing the ground under his feet and also confirm his misanthropic tendencies that no one can be trusted.

Re: Toppings of all types, continued

[selenak]

...mwahahaaaa. Yeah, if Fredersdorf wants to survive, he'd better not.

("I was only thinking of you the whole time, I swear!")

Re: Toppings of all types, continued

[mildred_of_midgard]

("You're so much alike I got confused!...Yes, I ended up in bed with Voltaire that one time, why do you ask?")

Re: Toppings of all types, continued

[selenak]

Other -Dorf, you mean. Lehndorff. :) (Fredersdorf, one f, : Fritz. Lehndorff, two ff: Heinrich.)

(Let's get not into whether Seckendorff, Austrian schemer supreme, would have bottomed for FW if FW had ever admitted to himself what he wanted from tall men…)

Also, agreed on their position on that occasion. ;)

Re: Toppings of all types, continued

[mildred_of_midgard]

I see we had the same reaction to Fredersdorf's name, albeit mine was more crackficcy.

I don't know about Seckendorff (I suspect he'd do whatever it took to advance the cause of Seckendorff), but there's definitely FW/Grumbkow fic on AO3... :P

I only skimmed the Google translation long ago (I really don't want to dwell on the thought of FW in bed, and only ended up in this fic because it was Fritz/Katte), and I don't remember who bottoms, but I have a vague memory it was FW. Which, if he wasn't already repressing his homosexual desires as temptations from Satan, imagine if he wanted to *bottom* for the tall guys (which seems likely enough, imo).

Re: Toppings of all types, continued

[selenak]

It's the fault of 18th century naming habits where a) everyone uses everyone else's last name, and b) way too many last names end with -Village! (In German.)

I don't know about Seckendorff (I suspect he'd do whatever it took to advance the cause of Seckendorff)

Well, that goes without saying. But he'd have to figure out which position furthers the cause of Seckendorff more first!

I've spotted FW/Grumbkow on AO3 in the Fritz/Katte stories, too, but haven't read it. Agreed that if he didn't repress like hell, he'd definitely want the beloved tall guys to top. Incidentally, I think the fact that he and SD clearly kept having sex while clawing each other's faces off, so to speak - Ferdinand was born in 1730! -, long after the dynasty was secure and the marriage had gone to hell was probably due to FW following St. Paul's "better to marry than to burn" advice, i.e. needed to channel his sexual urges in the only way permissable to a good Christian King (tm). I mean, he was only 51 when he died, which is easy to forget given one Imagines him born middle aged.

Moving on from the depressing topic of FW's sex life, to me the most bemusing A03 pairing in our fandom is Fritz/Casanova - not that it exists - canonical meeting and Fritz canonically finding good old Giacomo attractive - but that alt!Casanova according to the tags is the Doge of Venice's so who meets young same age Fritz. I shall never understand why people take a potentially interesting pairing and then promptly remove anything that would make it interesting, making it into a generic Any Two Guys instead. For starters, Casanova wasn't upper class, he was the son of an actress and an actor, which very much colored all his interactions with the upper class. He was among other things a highly successful con man whose default setting towards people in power was flirt and scheme to relieve them somehow of some of their valuables/ at least get their patronage. (Yes, and getting into bed with some of them.) Why on earth would you change that when pairing him with a brilliant paranoid snarky control freak? And if you don't want Fritz to be a generation older, why bother with Casanova at all when Algarotti is right there?

Re: Toppings of all types, continued

[mildred_of_midgard]

due to FW following St. Paul's "better to marry than to burn" advice, i.e. needed to channel his sexual urges in the only way permissable to a good Christian King (tm).

Agree.

But he'd have to figure out which position furthers the cause of Seckendorff more first!

LOL. How tall is he? Because if tall, then probably top. :P

I mean, he was only 51 when he died, which is easy to forget

The reason I don't forget is that I think, painfully, of just how *many* years Fritz had to imagine Dad potentially living when he was trying to run away at 18. 10 is a lot, but Fritz couldn't have known it wouldn't be 40.

given one Imagines him born middle aged.

But he *was* born middle-aged! Even his parents knew that. :P

For those who don't know young FW as well as Selena, here's an account of his youth from a biographer:

The new king, Frederick William, had manifested from childhood a violent aversion for ceremonies and luxury. One day, when quite a small child, curled, powdered, clad in a gala costume, he hid himself in a chimney, whence he was pulled out, black as a chimney-sweep. He threw a brocaded night-robe into the fire, soon after it was tried on him. The sight of the big perukes made him furious. Finding some courtiers in his father's antechamber, warming them selves, with their heads thrown back, so as not to scorch their beautiful periwigs, which had cost them 200 thalers, he forced them to throw their wigs into the fire. Another time, they picked up at the foot of the staircase a maitre de la cour whom he had kicked to the bottom. He was extremely parsimonious, and kept an exact account of his receipts and expenditures, in a faultless register, on the first page of which he had written: “Rechnung fiber meine Ducaten,--Account of my Ducats.” “Miser,” exclaimed his mother, “and at so tender an age!"

I shall never understand why people take a potentially interesting pairing and then promptly remove anything that would make it interesting, making it into a generic Any Two Guys instead.

It's true, a lot of AUs devolve into of generic Any Two Guys. I can see the appeal, but for myself, I generally want there to be *something* of the original dynamic retained, and not just the names.

Why on earth would you change that when pairing him with a brilliant paranoid snarky control freak?

Long ago, I tried skimming some of the earlier Fritz/Casanova material by the same author, the one where Casanova *is* a generation younger, and the impression I got was of a sweet, somewhat naive, almost childlike, stereotypical sub, and I was like...this is his twin brother who was given away at birth and ended up with the same name, right?

Anyway, the most prolific AO3 author in this fandom is far from my favorite, and the rampant cliches that I found just lightly skimming her work reconciled me to her unwillingness to use the enter key to put spaces between paragraphs, making her works into one thoroughly unreadable run-on wall of text for me. Space your paragraphs, people! (It's a pet peeve of mine.) Anyway, the unreadability doesn't matter because it's not something I want to read, which is too bad, because there's so much of it, haha.

I'm still raging at the part where a character, probably Casanova but I wasn't inspired to find out, was waiting, with evident author approval, for Fritz to get up the "courage" to visit Katte's* grave. Not everyone grieves the same way! Rituals around death are for the comfort of the living, not something owed to the dead! "Fuck you," is all I can think.

* Yes, most of my skimming took the form of "ctrl-f Katte". ;)

Re: Toppings of all types, continued: Fritz/Casanova

[iberiandoctor]

So I haven’t browsed the fic at all, and am taking mildred’s comments to heart, but you would have thought that this Brilliant Damaged Paranoid Older War General/Flirty Scheming Successful Young Rough Trade Con Man pairing would be filled with crossgen kink and razor-edged snark and attempted doublecrossing and inevitable hatesex? If not, then, as you say, what’s the point of this ship? (For the record, I would read the crap out of the former!)

FW/giants is canon, and Giants Top! ought to be!

Re: Toppings of all types, continued: Fritz/Casanova

[selenak]

If not, then, as you say, what’s the point of this ship?

Honestly, I haven't read any because the summaries and the tags already tell me it's not this. Which I would also love to read. Instead, AU Casanova seems to be a sweet natured comfort providing sub, if said summaries and tags are anything to go by. Which, for this particular pairing, I have zero interest in.

On the other hand: if you visit Sanssouci these days, there's apparantly a tour through the park where Casanova tells you all about his meeting with Fritz and adds a few stories he's heard about him to boot, which probably is more fun, and more historical, even if it's lacking them actually getting it on...

Re: Toppings of all types, continued

[iberiandoctor]

Heh, I clearly have the loyal prime minister on the brain instead of our pining diarist. Mea culpa, I blame the Mandarin.

if FW had ever admitted to himself what he wanted from tall men

No, right? All this obsession with giants has got to be at least in part sexual!