Frederick the Great discussion post 9

[cahn]

...I leave you guys alone for one weekend and it's time for a new Fritz post, lol!

I'm gonna reply to the previous post comments but I guess new letter-reading, etc. should go in this one :)

Frederick the Great links

Comments

Re: Toppings of all types, continued

[mildred_of_midgard]

If we're talking what really happened with Katte and Fritz in the time they had, as opposed to what would have happened if they'd had more time, I agree with selenak: Fritz makes the first move, Katte the older and more experienced (and probably more sexually confident) leads thereafter, with the addendum that Fritz probably, especially as time goes on, has very definite opinions about what he wants and when he wants it. I see him as progressing quickly to being a pushy bottom, and eventually moving to a switch.

Incidentally, the author of Zeithain agrees: Fritz makes the first move signaling, in no uncertain terms, that he wants Katte to top (it's implicit rather than explicit, but I see no other way to read their body language).

young Fritz probably had fantasies about being properly seduced by an experienced older man anyway, fitting the erastes/eromenes set up, and Suhm fits all the criteria.

I don't know how far they went physically (maybe they did go all the way!), but I definitely get an erastes/eromenos vibe from those two. <3 And I kind of suspect Fritz thought of it in those terms too, Greek terminology and all.

Any input is welcome, not least because it seems a key event and it's still something of a puzzle what actually happened!

Indeed!

ETA: I forgot to add that my headcanon (which seems very likely) is that Fritz first got a proper gay sex talk from Keyserlingk, Upstanding Governor in Charge of Sleeping in the Crown Prince's Room and Keeping Him Away from Women Chaste.

"Chaste" also included the sin of masturbation, btw...which, if Fritz is listing Keyserlingk, who was appointed by Dad to keep him in line, as one of the people he most loved, and Keyserlingk was one of the beloved Rheinsberg crowd, ima go with "Keyserlingk let Fritz masturbate whenever he wanted and probably gave pointers."

Re: Toppings of all types, continued

[selenak]

And I kind of suspect Fritz thought of it in those terms too, Greek terminology and all.

Just one problem here, though: if he had little Latin, then, to paraphrase Johnson about Shakespeare, I take it he had no Greek? And got all his intel on the ancients via French translations and/or recountings. So he might not have been familiar with the terminology after all. Though certainly with the concept.


"Chaste" also included the sin of masturbation

Oh, I know, considering Keyserlingk's successor, the guy in charge of teen AW, Heinrich and Ferdinand got those same instructions (no "silent sins"), with similar results. (FW really knew how to pick them!)

Keyserlingsk's orphaned daughter Adelaide, btw, whom Fredersdorff wrote Fritz about re: her being a charming little chatterbox resembling Dad already, later as a teen joins EC's household and shocks our Lehndorff somewhat by being an unrestrained flirt who gets away with everything, including ditching one fiance for another (EC has to write to Fritz for permission on that one, but Fritz is all "I'm fighting a three front war, you do that stuff, and also, let the kid marry whoever she wants") and then, post marriage, proceeding to have affairs and get royal permission to divorce no longer wanted husband 1 (this is post war, Fritz is back by now) for husband 2.

Future FW2: What.

Heinrich: How?

I guess the explanation is that Fritz felt he owed her father for having been nice to teenage Crown Prince Fritz about his budding sexuality?

Incidentally, many a post ago you referred to Keyserlingk as gay; not that being married and procreating argues against that - step forward, Philippe d'Orleans, ancestor to most currently living royals in Europe, not least courtesy of your grandson Franz Stephan marrying MT - but I'm curious whether it's based on an assumption or definite quotes?

Re: Toppings of all types, continued

[mildred_of_midgard]

if he had little Latin, then, to paraphrase Johnson about Shakespeare, I take it he had no Greek?

Correct. What I was doing was assuming that the terms erastes and eromenos were as common in the vernaculars of the 18th century as they are in modern English when talking about the Greeks (i.e. you do not need to know a word of Greek to encounter these words), but upon reflection, that's likely to be a recent scholarly development of the last hundred years. So you're quite right, he might have been familiar with the concept and not the terminology.

I guess the explanation is that Fritz felt he owed her father for having been nice to teenage Crown Prince Fritz about his budding sexuality?

Wow. Could be!

I'm curious whether it's based on an assumption or definite quotes?

Totally untrustworthy moderns giving no primary sources. Could be completely wrong.

I still think Keyserlingk must have been pretty lenient with Fritz in the bedroom, though.