cahn | Frederick the Great, discussion post 6

...I think we need another one (seriously, you guys, this is THE BEST) and I'd better make it now before I disappear into the wilds of music performance.

(also, as of this week there are two Frederician fics in the yuletide archive and eeeeeeeeeee)
(huh, only one of them is actually tagged with Frederick the Great even though two with Maria Theresia and Wilhelmine, eeeeeee this is awesome I CAN'T WAIT)

Frederick the Great masterpost

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From:

selenak

Re: Seckendorff, Lehndorff notes when he dies that he remembers the old guy commenting re: Fritz going on about his corruption in "History of the House of Brandenburg" that Fritz ought to know, seeing as he accepted 4000 Taler from Seckendorff as a bribe in his Crown Prince years.

Meanwhile, Fritz is trolling visitors in his bedroom.

EC, visiting Sanssouci for the first and last time during the evacuation of Berlin: That's IT. His mother, I would have expected. Wilhelmine, I would have understood, what else is new. But freaking MARIA THERESIA?!?

From:

mildred_of_midgard

EC, visiting Sanssouci for the first and last time during the evacuation of Berlin: That's IT. His mother, I would have expected. Wilhelmine, I would have understood, what else is new. But freaking MARIA THERESIA?!?

Hahahaha.

Fritz: A+ troll.

I mean, this is one of his harmless trolleries; there are much worse reported, like teasing someone at his dinner table and making them watch him eat while they were starving, then sending them away hungry, solely for the entertainment value. (Ugh, Fritz.)

seeing as he accepted 4000 Taler from Seckendorff as a bribe in his Crown Prince years.

Bribe to do what? Be nice to Austria when he inherited? Money well spent, Seckendorff. :-P I don't think it counts as bribery if you take the money, invade Silesia, and never pay it back. Double-dealing, yes.

Oh, man. I had missed this: I remembered that Seckendorff was in prison when Fritz inherited in 1740 (MT then released him), but Wikipedia is telling me Fritz had him abducted during the Seven Years' War, when he was evidently minding his own business, retired, and sickly on his own estate. Yeeaaahhh, Fritz. Revenge is a dish best served cold?

Which reminds me, remember when we were discussing Wilhelmine's depiction of Grumbkow in her memoirs as plotting against FW's life? And decided that was probably overstating the matter? Well, I just realized Catt reports Fritz saying that Grumbkow advised FW to execute him, during his trial. Do we know anything about this?

From:

selenak

Grumbkow: can't remember him advising for execution in the biographies I've read, bot ototh I do recall either Ziebura or Oster saying Grumbkow starting to speak up for Fritz post Katte's execution was mostly the result of him having come to the conclusion that since Fritz WILL be the next King, he'll better start collecting some reservoir of good will, and that Fritz didn't take it as anything else - they were mutual useful to each other between 1730 and 1739, but in his letters to Wilhelmine he's still all "Grumbkow & Seckendorff: as revolting as ever" during that same era, and when Grumbkow dies in 1739, he's all cynical "good news: one less Evil in the world".

Wiki also says Fritz had Seckendorff brought to Magdeburg (other prisoners in Magdeburg during the same time: Trenck), German wiki says "under the suspicion of having conducted a correspondance to Prussia's disadvantage with Austria", and that MT exchanged him against Moritz von Anhalt-Dessau, who had been captured by the Austrians at Hochkirch. Aside from old hostility, might simply have been Fritz needed a high ranking prisoner for a switch?

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Ah, you know, I should have checked German wiki, silly me. Thank you.

Aside from old hostility, might simply have been Fritz needed a high ranking prisoner for a switch?

Maybe. I saw the switch, but couldn't tell from English wiki whether Fritz had captured him before or after Hochkirch, but German wiki gives me the month, and it was indeed after. Okay, Fritz. German wiki comes through for you.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

(other prisoners in Magdeburg during the same time: Trenck)

Other prisoners carted off to Magdeburg a year later: Fritz, in his nightmares, for not loving his father enough. (Remembered the dream, had forgotten the prison was Magdeburg. Man.)

From:

selenak

I see your messed up and top it with this: according to Lehndorff, who is rather miffed about it, when the royal Household (i.e. EC, all princesses and younger princes and immediate staff) is evacuated to Magdeburg - where at this point Trenck is still prisoner and in his memoirs claims he got some goodies from "compassionate members of the royal family"), Fritz, who is simultanously in Breslau, invites Amalie - and only Amalie, no EC, no other princesses - to come and visit him. Fritz otherwise doesn't do female visits in the field, right? Which she does. (I would hope Lehndorff in his indignation feels at least a little for EC, but I fear it's mostly that if EC instead of Amalie had been invited, he'd have gotten to come along.)

Now, Magdeburg - Breslau: 390 km. Just saying.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Fritz otherwise doesn't do female visits in the field, right?

Not that I'm aware of. Wow. Was he thinking she was going to facilitate an escape attempt or what?

I would hope Lehndorff in his indignation feels at least a little for EC, but I fear it's mostly that if EC instead of Amalie had been invited, he'd have gotten to come along.

Yeah, I'm so sure EC is top of his mind right now. :P

Continuing with the theme of messed up...

Fritz to Catt: You know, I keep having this dream, and I don't know why. *recounts Magdeburg dream* Isn't that silly? Also I was extra harsh to some priests today. Why do I mention this? No reason.

Catt: "And perhaps, I said to myself, hearing this reflection, the dream, quite as much as the cold [that he'd suffered from on the road and which Catt has already observed has put him in a bad mood], was the cause of the tone in which he spoke this morning to the priests of the neighbourhood."

I'm also struck by the way he recounts his childhood abuse and Katte's execution, in the same conversation, and segues, without a pause for breath, into his campaign plans. Catt gives absolutely *no* comment on the Küstrin episode, either to Fritz or in his diary.

Now, we're at three removes from the actual conversation: Catt's diary, Catt's memoirs, the editor/translator, so I have to wonder how much that reflects the reality of the conversation. But it's perfectly possible Fritz vented while making it clear that he didn't want comment, or that Catt was at a complete loss for anything to say. Catt's known him for almost exactly one month at this point, which makes it interesting that Fritz is already recounting the execution from his perspective.

Also worth mentioning is that Fritz, after opening the topic with "I had during the night at Münsterberg a singular dream, and, I do not know why, I frequently have the same dreams," says near the end of the monologue, "As you may imagine, this scene made an impression on me which will never be effaced. See how it follows me in my dreams, and is continually representing my father as being angry with me and about to beat me."

:(

From:

selenak

Was he thinking she was going to facilitate an escape attempt or what?

Then he just could have ordered her to go elsewhere - for example to Quedlinburg, where she was technically the abbess, after all. But no, he tells her to come to him.

I also can't help recalling the fifteen minutes siblings hand holding at the palace victory party that Lehndorff observed. If FW's way was "I have your boyfriend executed in front of you to break you, but I'm doing this all for your own good", Fritz apparantly went the "I locked up your boyfriend in an extra hard way, but it really wasn't to hurt you, so I'm giving you the extra special honor of being with me in the field instead of being forced to be near where he's tormented! Look how unlike Dad I am!"

Lehndorff: *notes for the nth time that Amalie is moody as hell and goes from "angel to fiend and back" at lightning speed* *never ever wonders why*

(Oh, and also remember Heinrich writing to Ferdinand in January 1786, after his visit to Potsdam, that Amalie told him she wants to follow Fritz into death once he's dead? Now if Amalie said that to a courtier like Lehndorff, it would be one thing and fall under "courtly pretense", but she's talking to her brother whom she knows is not a fan of her other brother, so there's really no need to pretend anything. And given her and Heinrich's big Mom argument, she has no problem venting her anger about mutual family members in his presence.)

But it's perfectly possible Fritz vented while making it clear that he didn't want comment, or that Catt was at a complete loss for anything to say. Catt's known him for almost exactly one month at this point

Also, since Fritz has a "nobody gets to diss my father but me" thing going, if I were Catt, I'd be very unsure how the obvious comment - "how cruel!" would be taken. And clearly, hugging the King is out. (Unless you're Fredersdorf?)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Okay, well, go Fritz, I guess? Definitely an improvement on Dad. yes. Still room for a little more improvement, but part of that is 18th century mores.

Also, since Fritz has a "nobody gets to diss my father but me" thing going, if I were Catt, I'd be very unsure how the obvious comment - "how cruel!" would be taken.

Very true, I would nod and look sympathetic and keep my mouth shut. Touchy monarch, touchy subject, one month of knowing him. (I've repeatedly been advised by other people to keep my mouth largely shut with Fritz, except when he solicits commentary, and let him do most of the talking.) But there are other, less controversial things you can say without commenting directly on FW, like, "How sad," and no.

Plus Catt is always keen to find ways to challenge Fritz's jerkery to other people, and he also adds his own commentary in the memoirs of things he didn't say to Fritz, such as that "And then I thought maybe he was in such a bad mood because of the nightmare, but god knows I didn't say this to him." But nothing on Katte. Just one sentence where Fritz is all "See how enlightened I am, I didn't punish anyone involved in 1740," and Catt says, "Only the great ones know how to forgive and forget," clearly feeding Fritz the exact sentence he wants to hear, and that's it from Catt on the subject, Back to marching itineraries.

And clearly, hugging the King is out. (Unless you're Fredersdorf?)

Yeah. I really wish Fredersdorf had been alive and present when SD, AW, and especially Wilhelmine died. You can see Catt doing the best he can, and obviously better than Fritz did with Heinrich or the other siblings, but he's floundering in a way that I can't imagine Fredersdorf would after twenty-seven years of intimacy. Also why I wish Fredersdorf had been there at Soor, and not just because he would have ~~fought off the Pandurs singlehandedly~~ organized the bejeezus out of the camp so it was in a defensible state when they showed up. Fritz needs a hug.

From:

cahn

Lehndorff: *notes for the nth time that Amalie is moody as hell and goes from "angel to fiend and back" at lightning speed* *never ever wonders why*

Basically every single thing you write about Lehndorff I have this reaction of "awwwww he is really just incredibly non-socially/emotionally-perceptive and non-self-aware, it's cute." Of course, if he'd been even slightly socioemotionally perceptive/aware ~~like Richard Burton~~ then maybe we'd have had a lot more information about everything! It seems to me as it is that Lendorff seems to be the Mystery Source for a lot of things you guys already knew from bios and such.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

"awwwww he is really just incredibly non-socially/emotionally-perceptive and non-self-aware, it's cute."

This!

Of course, if he'd been even slightly socioemotionally perceptive/aware like Richard Burton then maybe we'd have had a lot more information about everything!

This too!

It seems to me as it is that Lendorff seems to be the Mystery Source for a lot of things you guys already knew from bios and such.

I know; he wasn't on my radar at all (he gets quoted in biographies but not in such a way that I remembered him as a person), and I keep having these, "Oh, *he's* our source for this!" moments. Thank god for

selenak, because he really doesn't seem to have been translated, and I just never would have been able to read him. And he is *such* an awesome source.