Frederick the Great, discussion post 6
Dec. 2nd, 2019 02:27 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahn...I think we need another one (seriously, you guys, this is THE BEST) and I'd better make it now before I disappear into the wilds of music performance.
(also, as of this week there are two Frederician fics in the yuletide archive and eeeeeeeeeee)
(huh, only one of them is actually tagged with Frederick the Great even though two with Maria Theresia and Wilhelmine, eeeeeee this is awesome I CAN'T WAIT)
Frederick the Great masterpost
(also, as of this week there are two Frederician fics in the yuletide archive and eeeeeeeeeee)
(huh, only one of them is actually tagged with Frederick the Great even though two with Maria Theresia and Wilhelmine, eeeeeee this is awesome I CAN'T WAIT)
Frederick the Great masterpost
Re: Lehndorf
Date: 2019-12-05 08:58 pm (UTC)Man, I am loving how every day I basically get a new crackfic for this fandom. Only most of them actually happened.
he’d have cut it but for historical considerations, for lo, it seems that (Fritz-derived) image historians had of the Prussian court only turning sensual and adulterous once FW2 the playboy got on the throne? Is wrong! The Fritzian court was not a bastion of chaste stoic Prussian masculinity after all.
LOL awwww I love Overly Earnest Editor Historian -- seriously, I'm not joking, I understand that it's because of people like this not cutting things that we HAVE it, but at the same time I kind of want to pat him on the head.
everyone is emo in those days, so Lehndorf bursting into tears when his beloved Heinrich isn’t around for a few days is UTTERLY NORMAL.
okay, now I Definitely want to pat Editor on the head
Secretary: …and our ambassador writes the King of Prussia wants to have your portrait. Will send you his own.
MT: To throw darts at?
LOL, probably??
There I see the one I was supposed to marry. I don’t regret for a moment having rejected this marriage. I also hear that Count Algarotti will go to Italy. He is an intellectual („Schöngeist“) who has made his fortune at our court. One enjoys hearing him talk but is afraid of seeing him; thus it is with all who are too enamored with their own wit.
AHAHAHA I love this. Also... I wonder if there was some jealousy working there? What did Heinrich think of Algarotti?
Lehndorf hangs out with all three of the Hohenzollern princes so often that one wonders when on earth he’s doing his job with EC. And then you get entries like, when he’s returning from a trip to Rheinsberg: „The Queen is displeased with me. Ah well, no rose without thorns!“
*facepalm* LEHNDORF. IT'S YOUR JOB, DUDE.
Countess Bentick, aka the enterprising lady of Mission: Seduce Heinrich fame
ooh, I'm glad you mentioned who she was, because while of course I remember Mission: Seduce Heinrich I'd forgotten what her name was
because only cameo roleI note with joy how disgusted the Prince of Prussia - aka AW - is by hunting. He says he cannot find joy in attacking creatures which have no chance to defend themselves. Prince Ferdinand shoots carelessly and hits a farmer.
I gotta say this made me laugh out loud. I knooooow it wasn't funny for the farmer, but at centuries of remove I'm just, okay, Hohenzollerns, you can't even go hunting without making someone's life super miserable! (Also, AW <3 )
Also also, after all the self-aware people who still can't help but mess up their lives in all these posts, I'm finding Lehndorf's lack of awareness in all your comments to be totally hilarious.
Re: Lehndorf
Date: 2019-12-06 04:09 am (UTC)Yeeess! And Team Frederician Fandom is the best! I love how my bloodhound instincts dovetailed with
Man, I am loving how every day I basically get a new crackfic for this fandom. Only most of them actually happened.
ME TOO. It's like Yuletide every day! I thought nothing could top the Wusterhausen family reunion, but then there was the "other self; YES GOD YES. You bastard; last twelve years" ALL IN ONE FIC. And they just keep coming! Trenck! Lehndorf! Grandpa F1 prequel!
The Fritzian court was not a bastion of chaste stoic Prussian masculinity after all. On the other hand, we’re told to keep in mind everyone is emo in those days, so Lehndorf bursting into tears when his beloved Heinrich isn’t around for a few days is UTTERLY NORMAL.
ZOMG. Catt's English translator, a Stiff Upper Lip Brit circa 1917, does the same thing! He urges his readers to remember that Continentals are more emo than Brits, and that the 18th century was a different time, and assures them that they can still take Old Fritz seriously, even when he's bursting into tears every time he declaims something from one of his favorite poets.
Now, the Catt translator hates Fritz otherwise, but at least he's being scrupulously fair and excusing the constant waterworks.
Wilhelmine's translator, otoh, is such a Fritzian he produces this gem that made me laugh out loud: "To Seckendorff, Voltaire maintains that Frederick owed his life, when, with great difficulty, the arch-conspirator kept Frederick William from beheading him...he adds that Frederick requited Seckendorff's kindness by inserting a hideous caricature of him in certain copies of his Memoirs of Brandenburg...The reader of the Margravine's autobiography will probably feel that when Seckendorff saved Frederick's life the account between them was about even, and that Frederick might proceed to new injuries with a clear conscience."
And remember how Lady Mary's editor was falling all over himself to excuse her Rococo frankness? "She was totally a lady! They could talk like that back then with perfect propriety. DON'T TAKE THIS THE WRONG WAY, readers."
LOL awwww I love Overly Earnest Editor Historian -- seriously, I'm not joking, I understand that it's because of people like this not cutting things that we HAVE it, but at the same time I kind of want to pat him on the head.
Lol, me too.
Secretary: …and our ambassador writes the King of Prussia wants to have your portrait. Will send you his own.
MT: To throw darts at?
Somewhere, in a back storage room of the Kunsthistorisches Museum, curators are scratching their heads. "Where did all these holes come from?"
Meanwhile, Fritz is trolling visitors in his bedroom.
Yes, this is the first contemporary who finds Algarotti resistable.
Woow. He's attracted to men AND he finds Algarotti resistable? That must really be a first! I wonder if Algarotti did a satire of Heinrich that delighted Fritz and not so much Lehndorf. :P
What did Heinrich think of Algarotti?
OOH GOOD QUESTION. Maybe other-Fritz liked Algarotti too and Lehndorf was Not Amused.
Algarotti: I'm getting out of here before I can become the next Marwitz. Bye, Hohenzollern brothers! I'll be nice to your sister when she shows up in Italy, but you all can keep your crazy in Prussia.
Lehndorf hangs out with all three of the Hohenzollern princes so often that one wonders when on earth he’s doing his job with EC. And then you get entries like, when he’s returning from a trip to Rheinsberg: „The Queen is displeased with me. Ah well, no rose without thorns!“
*facepalm* LEHNDORF. IT'S YOUR JOB, DUDE.
Dude. I'm with Lehndorf. I would totally be ditching EC and hanging out with the brothers. :PP If you have a thick enough skin, it's worth it!
I gotta say this made me laugh out loud. I knooooow it wasn't funny for the farmer, but at centuries of remove I'm just, okay, Hohenzollerns, you can't even go hunting without making someone's life super miserable! (Also, AW <3 )
Was talking with my wife today about our messed-up fandom, and she quoted, "Comedy is tragedy plus time," which has never felt so relevant.
Meanwhile, he practically draws sparkly hearts around Heinrich’s name every time he mentions him.
I laughed out loud at this. Of course he does!
We participate in the great hunt.
What great hunt? Does Fritz mandate an annual hunt? (Who else can make AW do something he doesn't want to?) I mean, King Fritz did many things Crown Prince Fritz would have been horrified by, but I thought the greater sympathy for animals than for humans was something he hung onto. If he is having to Prove Things to long dead FW again when he haaaates hunting, I am just so...ugh. Hugs and family therapy and NO WEAPONS for you guys. (The farmers and shepherds will thank you.)
ETA:
We have suppressed some names and cut the worst passages, though.
Also, dammit. Give me all the dirt, editor!
Re: Lehndorf
Date: 2019-12-06 05:07 am (UTC)All the Editors of the late 19th and early 20th century: What a weird time it was when men were allowed to cry all the time, oh Reader - please be understanding!
Mind you, Lehndorff's has lost something of my favour because he makes a really weird editorial choice. We get until about a year after AW's death in detailed entries, and then the next few years till the end of the 7 Years War are just summarized by the editor who doesn't let Lehndorff himself report again until Fritz has won the war.
Editor in these summaries, upon first longer Lehndorff reunion with Heinrich post AW's death: "Lehndorff was satisfied that the Prince told him many interesting things." Oh yeah? Like what? Look, maybe you don't want your 1907 readers to be shocked by a fraternal rant about Frederick the Great, but your 2019 readers want to hear it!
Woow. He's attracted to men AND he finds Algarotti resistable? That must really be a first! I wonder if Algarotti did a satire of Heinrich that delighted Fritz and not so much Lehndorf
Possible, but if so, he would have mentioned it. He always does when someone is rude to his faves, and the editor isn't cutting yet at this point.
Maybe other-Fritz liked Algarotti too and Lehndorf was Not Amused.
Algarotti: I'm getting out of here before I can become the next Marwitz.
Now that sounds moreo plausible to me. Lehndorff doesn't like any of Heinrich's boyfriends, after all.
Who ordered the hunt? Not mentioned. Lehndorff just starts that entry with "we went hunting". I mean, there are Braunschweig and Hessen guests at court to be entertained, so that might have been the reason.
Re: Lehndorf
Date: 2019-12-06 05:13 am (UTC)Oh, that's true, it might have been protocol. I hear Fritz used to send out the hunt at Rheinsberg whenever his father's guests came to spy on him, so they couldn't pick up on the musical shenanigans he was getting up to.
Maybe other-Fritz liked Algarotti too and Lehndorf was Not Amused.
Algarotti: I'm getting out of here before I can become the next Marwitz.
Now that sounds moreo plausible to me. Lehndorff doesn't like any of Heinrich's boyfriends, after all.
It is Algarotti's doom to be plagued by love triangles wherever he goes. Being ultra-attractive has its downsides, kids! <-- new headcanon
then the next few years till the end of the 7 Years War are just summarized by the editor who doesn't let Lehndorff himself report again until Fritz has won the war.
WHAT? But the Seven Years' War is exciting! (I mean, I'm so glad we have Catt from 1758-1760, those are the juicy years. I mean, yes, I wish we also had 1757, but I'll take what I can get.)
Re: Lehndorf
Date: 2019-12-06 05:16 am (UTC)Re: Lehndorf
Date: 2019-12-06 05:21 am (UTC)I wonder if the "best of" 2007 version is a best of this published version, or if it goes back to the original sources and does its own selection? If so, might it have gotten the good stuff from 1759-1763?
Re: Lehndorf
Date: 2019-12-06 06:52 am (UTC)Re: Lehndorf
Date: 2019-12-06 06:55 am (UTC)Re: Lehndorf
Date: 2019-12-10 04:24 am (UTC)Re: Lehndorf
Date: 2019-12-10 04:25 am (UTC)Re: Lehndorf
Date: 2019-12-06 12:45 pm (UTC)Meanwhile, Fritz is trolling visitors in his bedroom.
EC, visiting Sanssouci for the first and last time during the evacuation of Berlin: That's IT. His mother, I would have expected. Wilhelmine, I would have understood, what else is new. But freaking MARIA THERESIA?!?
Re: Lehndorf
Date: 2019-12-07 12:59 am (UTC)Hahahaha.
Fritz: A+ troll.
I mean, this is one of his harmless trolleries; there are much worse reported, like teasing someone at his dinner table and making them watch him eat while they were starving, then sending them away hungry, solely for the entertainment value. (Ugh, Fritz.)
seeing as he accepted 4000 Taler from Seckendorff as a bribe in his Crown Prince years.
Bribe to do what? Be nice to Austria when he inherited? Money well spent, Seckendorff. :-P I don't think it counts as bribery if you take the money, invade Silesia, and never pay it back. Double-dealing, yes.
Oh, man. I had missed this: I remembered that Seckendorff was in prison when Fritz inherited in 1740 (MT then released him), but Wikipedia is telling me Fritz had him abducted during the Seven Years' War, when he was evidently minding his own business, retired, and sickly on his own estate. Yeeaaahhh, Fritz. Revenge is a dish best served cold?
Which reminds me, remember when we were discussing Wilhelmine's depiction of Grumbkow in her memoirs as plotting against FW's life? And decided that was probably overstating the matter? Well, I just realized Catt reports Fritz saying that Grumbkow advised FW to execute him, during his trial. Do we know anything about this?
Re: Lehndorf
Date: 2019-12-07 01:01 pm (UTC)Wiki also says Fritz had Seckendorff brought to Magdeburg (other prisoners in Magdeburg during the same time: Trenck), German wiki says "under the suspicion of having conducted a correspondance to Prussia's disadvantage with Austria", and that MT exchanged him against Moritz von Anhalt-Dessau, who had been captured by the Austrians at Hochkirch. Aside from old hostility, might simply have been Fritz needed a high ranking prisoner for a switch?
Re: Lehndorf
Date: 2019-12-07 11:08 pm (UTC)Aside from old hostility, might simply have been Fritz needed a high ranking prisoner for a switch?
Maybe. I saw the switch, but couldn't tell from English wiki whether Fritz had captured him before or after Hochkirch, but German wiki gives me the month, and it was indeed after. Okay, Fritz. German wiki comes through for you.
Re: Lehndorf
Date: 2019-12-07 11:40 pm (UTC)Other prisoners carted off to Magdeburg a year later: Fritz, in his nightmares, for not loving his father enough. (Remembered the dream, had forgotten the prison was Magdeburg. Man.)
Re: Lehndorf
Date: 2019-12-08 05:43 am (UTC)Now, Magdeburg - Breslau: 390 km. Just saying.
Re: Lehndorf
Date: 2019-12-08 08:17 am (UTC)Not that I'm aware of. Wow. Was he thinking she was going to facilitate an escape attempt or what?
I would hope Lehndorff in his indignation feels at least a little for EC, but I fear it's mostly that if EC instead of Amalie had been invited, he'd have gotten to come along.
Yeah, I'm so sure EC is top of his mind right now. :P
Continuing with the theme of messed up...
Fritz to Catt: You know, I keep having this dream, and I don't know why. *recounts Magdeburg dream* Isn't that silly? Also I was extra harsh to some priests today. Why do I mention this? No reason.
Catt: "And perhaps, I said to myself, hearing this reflection, the dream, quite as much as the cold [that he'd suffered from on the road and which Catt has already observed has put him in a bad mood], was the cause of the tone in which he spoke this morning to the priests of the neighbourhood."
I'm also struck by the way he recounts his childhood abuse and Katte's execution, in the same conversation, and segues, without a pause for breath, into his campaign plans. Catt gives absolutely *no* comment on the Küstrin episode, either to Fritz or in his diary.
Now, we're at three removes from the actual conversation: Catt's diary, Catt's memoirs, the editor/translator, so I have to wonder how much that reflects the reality of the conversation. But it's perfectly possible Fritz vented while making it clear that he didn't want comment, or that Catt was at a complete loss for anything to say. Catt's known him for almost exactly one month at this point, which makes it interesting that Fritz is already recounting the execution from his perspective.
Also worth mentioning is that Fritz, after opening the topic with "I had during the night at Münsterberg a singular dream, and, I do not know why, I frequently have the same dreams," says near the end of the monologue, "As you may imagine, this scene made an impression on me which will never be effaced. See how it follows me in my dreams, and is continually representing my father as being angry with me and about to beat me."
:(
Re: Lehndorf
Date: 2019-12-08 11:25 am (UTC)Then he just could have ordered her to go elsewhere - for example to Quedlinburg, where she was technically the abbess, after all. But no, he tells her to come to him.
I also can't help recalling the fifteen minutes siblings hand holding at the palace victory party that Lehndorff observed. If FW's way was "I have your boyfriend executed in front of you to break you, but I'm doing this all for your own good", Fritz apparantly went the "I locked up your boyfriend in an extra hard way, but it really wasn't to hurt you, so I'm giving you the extra special honor of being with me in the field instead of being forced to be near where he's tormented! Look how unlike Dad I am!"
Lehndorff: *notes for the nth time that Amalie is moody as hell and goes from "angel to fiend and back" at lightning speed* *never ever wonders why*
(Oh, and also remember Heinrich writing to Ferdinand in January 1786, after his visit to Potsdam, that Amalie told him she wants to follow Fritz into death once he's dead? Now if Amalie said that to a courtier like Lehndorff, it would be one thing and fall under "courtly pretense", but she's talking to her brother whom she knows is not a fan of her other brother, so there's really no need to pretend anything. And given her and Heinrich's big Mom argument, she has no problem venting her anger about mutual family members in his presence.)
But it's perfectly possible Fritz vented while making it clear that he didn't want comment, or that Catt was at a complete loss for anything to say. Catt's known him for almost exactly one month at this point
Also, since Fritz has a "nobody gets to diss my father but me" thing going, if I were Catt, I'd be very unsure how the obvious comment - "how cruel!" would be taken. And clearly, hugging the King is out. (Unless you're Fredersdorf?)
Re: Lehndorf
Date: 2019-12-08 08:11 pm (UTC)Also, since Fritz has a "nobody gets to diss my father but me" thing going, if I were Catt, I'd be very unsure how the obvious comment - "how cruel!" would be taken.
Very true, I would nod and look sympathetic and keep my mouth shut. Touchy monarch, touchy subject, one month of knowing him. (I've repeatedly been advised by other people to keep my mouth largely shut with Fritz, except when he solicits commentary, and let him do most of the talking.) But there are other, less controversial things you can say without commenting directly on FW, like, "How sad," and no.
Plus Catt is always keen to find ways to challenge Fritz's jerkery to other people, and he also adds his own commentary in the memoirs of things he didn't say to Fritz, such as that "And then I thought maybe he was in such a bad mood because of the nightmare, but god knows I didn't say this to him." But nothing on Katte. Just one sentence where Fritz is all "See how enlightened I am, I didn't punish anyone involved in 1740," and Catt says, "Only the great ones know how to forgive and forget," clearly feeding Fritz the exact sentence he wants to hear, and that's it from Catt on the subject, Back to marching itineraries.
And clearly, hugging the King is out. (Unless you're Fredersdorf?)
Yeah. I really wish Fredersdorf had been alive and present when SD, AW, and especially Wilhelmine died. You can see Catt doing the best he can, and obviously better than Fritz did with Heinrich or the other siblings, but he's floundering in a way that I can't imagine Fredersdorf would after twenty-seven years of intimacy. Also why I wish Fredersdorf had been there at Soor, and not just because he would have
fought off the Pandurs singlehandedlyorganized the bejeezus out of the camp so it was in a defensible state when they showed up. Fritz needs a hug.Re: Lehndorf
Date: 2019-12-10 04:26 am (UTC)Basically every single thing you write about Lehndorff I have this reaction of "awwwww he is really just incredibly non-socially/emotionally-perceptive and non-self-aware, it's cute." Of course, if he'd been even slightly socioemotionally perceptive/aware
like Richard Burtonthen maybe we'd have had a lot more information about everything! It seems to me as it is that Lendorff seems to be the Mystery Source for a lot of things you guys already knew from bios and such.Re: Lehndorf
Date: 2019-12-10 04:29 am (UTC)This!
Of course, if he'd been even slightly socioemotionally perceptive/aware like Richard Burton then maybe we'd have had a lot more information about everything!
This too!
It seems to me as it is that Lendorff seems to be the Mystery Source for a lot of things you guys already knew from bios and such.
I know; he wasn't on my radar at all (he gets quoted in biographies but not in such a way that I remembered him as a person), and I keep having these, "Oh, *he's* our source for this!" moments. Thank god for
Re: Lehndorf
Date: 2019-12-10 04:25 am (UTC)