Frederick the Great post links

[cahn]

More Frederick the Great (henceforth "Fritz") and surrounding spinoffs history! Clearly my purpose in life is now revealed: it is to encourage mildred_of_midgard and selenak to talk to me about Frederick the Great and associated/tangential European history. I am having such a great time here! Collating some links in this post:

* selenak's post on Frederick the Great as a TV show with associated fandom; a great place to start for the general history

* I have given up indexing all posts, here is the tag of discussion posts. Someday when I actually have time maybe I'll do a "best of."


Some links that have come up in the course of this discussion (and which I am putting here partially for my own benefit because in particular I haven't had time to watch the movies because still mainlining Nirvana in Fire):
Fritz' sister Wilhelmine's tell-all tabloidy memoirs (English translation); this is Part I; the text options have been imperfectly OCR'd so be aware of that (NOTE 11-6-19: THIS IS A BOWDLERIZED TEXT, I WILL COME BACK WITH A BETTER LINK)
Part II of Wilhelmine's memoirs (English translation)
A dramatization of Frederick the Great's story, English subtitles
Mein Name ist Bach, Movie of Frederick the Great and J.S. Bach, with subtitles Some discussion of the subtitles in the thread here (also scroll down)
2017 miniseries about Maria Theresia, with subtitles and better translation of one scene in comments

ETA:
Miniseries of Peter the Great, IN ENGLISH, apparently reasonably historically solid
ETA 10-22-19
Website with letters from and to Wilhelmine during her 1754/1755 journey through France and Italy, as well as a few letters about Wilhelmine, in the original French, in a German translation, and in facsimile
University of Trier site where the full works of Friedrich in the original French and German have been transcribed, digitized, and uploaded:
30 volumes of writings and personal correspondence
46 volumes of political correspondence
Fritz and Wilhelmine's correspondence (vol 27_1)
ETA 10-28-19
Der Thronfolger (German, no subtitles; explanation of action in the comment here)
ETA 11-6-19
Memoirs of Stanisław August Poniatowski, dual Polish and French translation
ETA 1-14-20
Our Royal Librarian Mildred has collated some documentation, including google translate versions of the Trier letters above (see the "Correspondence" folder)!

Comments

Re: Epic rap battles of history

[mildred_of_midgard]

Oh, very well. I defer to your far superior knowledge of this movie. :) 

I will say that, with my deep emotional investment in this scene, I watched these particular few minutes multiple times like a normal person, and also in slow motion, before forming an opinion, but I agree I am handicapped by 1) experiencing it in translation, which affects both phrasing and intonation (you can hear the intonation this way, but not reliably match it up with the words) 2) my refusal to watch the rest of the movie like a normal person and thus absorb the full Fritz/Goltz context for the scene.

But here's why I parsed this dynamic the way I did, and why I would have far preferred Fredersdorf:

It begins with Goltz saying he's tired and wants to go, and Fritz saying, in effect, that he doesn't care what Goltz wants, it's therapy time. That lead-in made it very difficult for me to interpret what came next in light of anything except a power imbalance. And so I took Goltz's apparently genuine concern, "This game does Your Majesty no good," as him appealing to Fritz's self-interest in order to get them both out of this, since his own needs have already been rejected as irrelevant.

And then everything after that is Fritz/Katte roleplay, so all words, intonations, facial expressions, and gestures of tenderness can be assumed to have been micromanaged by Fritz over the course of the previous roleplay occasions, and so none of this is admissible as evidence. (As noted, the facial expressions in the rest of the movie that you have seen and I have not are admissible as evidence and I defer to you.)

Whereas RL Fritz showed at least some concern over Fredersdorf's well-being in their correspondence, and same with Catt's well-being in Catt's memoirs. What I haven't seen in this movie, and stop me if I just missed or forgot it from 2xing the thing in small increments over the course of several weeks, is Fritz showing any concern for Goltz's well-being. Now, granted, *any* relationship between Fritz and another person is going to suffer from a power imbalance, including and up to Wilhelmine and Katte. But when I see some reciprocity, I'm more likely to interpret it as a mutual relationship with potentially positive aspects. That's why, if they had only changed the name to Fredersdorf, and kept all the dialogue and everything else the same, I would have been more likely to parse Fredersdorf as genuinely concerned, as opposed to simply watching his back and trying to keep his job (in the face of Fritz's notorious zero-strike policy).

Also. My experience of the film leaves me taking Goltz's word for it that the roleplaying isn't good for Fritz. Maybe it's not. Maybe he's always in a foul mood afterward and takes it out on everyone around him and never gets anywhere even after numerous repetitions. But what I've actually gotten out of the movie so far with my own eyes and what you've told me is 1) Fritz crying at the end of the roleplay, 2) Fritz confiding in Bach later on. Neither of which convinces me that the roleplay wasn't good for him, given the way his historical number one reaction to Katte's death, after those first few days, was to bottle it all up inside. Obviously, roleplay hasn't solved all of his issues, no one thing is going to do that (especially when the Katte affair was only his most acute trauma, and his chronic trauma had imo far more widespread and ineradicable effects), but that's different from saying it does him no good.

Here's how I would have loved to have seen this play out. It requires absolutely minimal changes.

1) Change Goltz's name to Fredersdorf.

2) Same roleplay scene. We can even keep the line about it not being good for Fritz, on the assumption that Fredersdorf doesn't know that it might be good for him, because I don't expect anyone in the 18th century to know the first thing about psychology.

3) That flute music by moonlight scene immediately after? Have Fritz and Fredersdorf playing their flutes together.

4) Keep the therapy session with Bach later on.

Implication: spontaneous repetitive roleplaying of acute trauma in the dark, with someone he has a close relationship with, functions as exposure therapy, which in turn leads to it being easier for him to open up about his chronic trauma in the daylight with someone whom he knows less well (and Gooood knows, hasn't has the smoothest relationship with so far in this movie!) but who can function as a father figure.

It substitutes one name and makes a slight alteration in one scene, and it changes the whole arc for me.

Btw, question for you, as someone who's seen the whole movie: I've done repeated slow-mo-ing and freeze framing of the shot right after Goltz knocks over the ink, and I'm a bit confused. My interpretation is that it's Fritz having a flashback to what appears to be a beheaded (?) individual in a white shroud (?) lying next to a wheel and a stone wall suggestive of a fortress. Now, I've seen historians suggest that FW threatening Katte and Keith with torture (though he never followed through) might lie behind some of Friedrich II's later mitigation of torture. And that definitely seems to be what this scene is getting at: it starts with Fritz talking to Goltz about his personal horror of torture, and ends with him having a flashback to what has to be Katte.

Am I interpreting this correctly? Is this just artistic license on the part of the film, implying that Katte was broken on the wheel? Is this cleared up in the discussion with Bach? Does Fritz explicitly talk about Katte at all with Bach, or just the many, many other daddy issues?

Thank you for bearing with my dislike of this medium that dates back to when I was 2-3 years old and my mother tried and failed to get me to be a normal kid and watch Sesame Street. :)

I suspect some conspiracy involving Prussian cyber agents from the beyond.

Those sneaky cyber agents, always foiling us! Say hi to Old Fritz from me, agents. :D

Re: Epic rap battles of history

[mildred_of_midgard]

And also. Regardless of Goltz's feelings about Fritz, it remains the case that he doesn't want to be there, he gave two reasons for not wanting to be there and was ignored, he doesn't think the roleplay is a good idea, and he's still being forced to do it. This means two things. One, it's an abuse of power by a monarch, no two ways about it. Two, maybe it's because Goltz has already tried everything he can think of to make this roleplay work better for Fritz and nothing's worked, but his lack of encouragement is not actually helping the roleplay succeed. Of course, it's not his job to help! See point one, about the abuse of power. But I still want to see this same roleplay done by someone who's encouraging Fritz to do what he needs to do.

Which leads me to, either Goltz is right or wrong that this is another one of Fritz's patented Really Bad Ideas (TM). If he's right, it means Fritz genuinely feels worse as a result of doing this, in not just the short but the long term. I find it difficult to believe, given both the RL man and the theme of this movie, that Fritz feeling worse wouldn't have any effect on the way he treats the people around him, and therefore that Goltz doesn't have some vested interest in talking Fritz out of the roleplay. There are many ways for this roleplay to go wrong, with and without the power differential, and Goltz may be spot on.

But he may also be wrong. And if he's wrong, it means Fritz would actually benefit from having someone to do this with him, and what he's got is someone who's sending "don't do this" messages. Now this may be because Goltz totally cares about Fritz and doesn't want to see him crying at the end. It may be the case that Fredersdorf would have had the same reaction, purely out of caring and his own discomfort at seeing Fritz cry. That still doesn't mean the roleplay was a bad idea.

[Okay, this turned into a ramble about trauma psychology, which is one of my interests.]

It's actually extremely common, and a big problem for trauma survivors, for the people closest to them to feel radically uncomfortable with them reliving their traumatic memories. Sometimes people tell the survivor it's better to let it go, or sometimes they try to listen, but get increasingly and visibly upset at hearing about these awful things and/or watching the survivor cry. At that point, the survivor is now having to manage the emotions of the person they're talking to as well as their own emotions, which is not something you can do while reliving a traumatic experience. So the whole thing starts shutting down.

Both these approaches mean the survivor ends up feeling like they're not allowed to talk about what they need to talk about, even when they want to, which is really, really bad for their recovery prospects. Now! It is no one's responsibility to listen to anyone else's traumas, much less participate in a roleplay. You can absolutely find someone else's traumas too upsetting to listen to and tell them so. Self-care comes first.

But telling someone it's bad for *them* to relive their memories is absolutely the wrong thing to say. I realize pretty much everyone who says this is well-meaning, and God knows I don't hold random laypeople responsible for understanding psychology in this century, much less 3 centuries ago. But they're still misinformed and spreading misinformation. (As noted, this specific roleplay between Fritz and Goltz may be going horribly wrong in many ways, and I'm not saying Goltz was necessarily concluding it was bad for Fritz just because of Fritz's emotions during the roleplay. But if that's what he meant, then that's an extremely common mistake.)

The most helpful thing you can do, if someone you care about is reliving a trauma, is to realize that they're dealing with their own emotions right now and can't deal with yours, to understand that just because your own emotions are in revolt at the thought of them suffering doesn't mean that it's bad for them to relive it, and to try to manage your own secondhand emotions out of their sight.

That's IF doing so isn't going to cause you unhealthy amounts of distress, of course. But sometimes it's enough just to know that it's okay to let them experience their own distress without you having to fix it or try to make it stop. If you're not a trained professional, quiet support and validation is usually the best thing you can do. If we're talking the present day, suggestions that they find someone qualified to help if they need to. Above all, not pressure to talk, but acceptance and encouragement when they do. And, of course, navigation of boundaries: distinguish between "I can't hear about X right now/ever because it's inherently upsetting/I don't have the spoons/I don't want to do this/I don't need to explain" and "I balk at hearing about X because I have misconceptions about what the other person needs."

TL;DR: I didn't come up with this specific roleplay for Fritz, but I've been having him roleplay with trusted loved ones in my head for months because it has a lot of potential to help if done right, and this scene hit pretty close to home in that respect.