Opera for Beginners (Part 3 of 3)

[cahn]

I talked about Opera for Beginners for my family reunion talk and used much of the advice I was given here, thank you! :)

-I brought speakers, because there isn't much use in giving an opera talk if you can't hear the music! The hilarious thing was that I was not the only one who had audio/audiovisual components to my presentation, but I was the only one who had brought speakers. I had been a little bitter about lugging them all around Montana, but less so when they turned out to be broadly useful :) What was more irritating was that after they worked fine when I tried them out in my office, they didn't work at all for a while when I was trying to give the talk. Finally my cousin's teenager, who was acting as unofficial tech support, suggested rebooting as a last resort, and of course that worked. Sigh.

-A couple of people mentioned talking about where one might go looking for opera. My biggest recommendations to a newbie are the following:
1.The Chandos Opera in English CDs, without which I would still hate opera today. I highly highly recommend all the Mozart ones, particularly the da Ponte operas (Marriage of Figaro, Don Giovanni, Cosi fan tutte), and the bel canto comedies (e.g., Barber of Seville, The Elixir of Love), and dis-recommend their Verdi except Don Carlos (for some reason Verdi tends to come out a bit muddled). Their French opera also seems to be very good, and I absolutely adore their Eugene Onegin (which stars Thomas Hampson and Kiri te Kanawa).

2. Met On Demand, which comes with a free 7-day trial. People who know a lot about opera rag on the Met for not being adventurous in its staging and concept, which, fair, but for a beginner, in my opinion, that's exactly what you want, and you can't do better than the Met for gorgeous staging and costumes, great singers, and great videography, which I didn't even know would affect me until I started watching a bunch of these... and... it does actually make a huge difference when watching video. (Watching live is, of course, different.)

-I showed several clips, one of which was a 3-minute clip of Kaufmann/Hampson/Salminen in the auto-da-fe scene from Don Carlo. (Alagna/Keenlyside/Furlanetto is still the whole version of Don Carlo I would recommend, but for auto-da-fe out of context I thought the former was better, not least because it didn't have a giant weeping Jesus in the background.) I explained beforehand the background about how Posa is Prince Carlo's best friend but also has the relationship where he has sworn fealty to King Philip. (I have uploaded the clip here (google drive video clip, ~3 minutes) -- mildredofmidgard, I know music/opera is Not Your Thing but this is the moment in Don Carlo I was talking about, check it out) and my big triumph, as far as I am concerned, is that when the clip ended my cousin cried out, "Oh, that's so sad!" MY WORK HERE IS DONE.

-My other great triumph was that E was curious about what I said about Don Giovanni. Being her, she could not care less about Don G himself -- she was perfectly content with a limited understanding that he was the Bad Guy -- but she was particularly interested in what I said about Don G coming to a sticky end, and asked about it the next day. Once I further explained that there was a singing statue and that in many productions Don G disappeared into flames with the statue at the end, both she and A really wanted to watch it, so that afternoon we all snuggled up on the couch and watched "Don Giovanni, a cenar teco" (this one with Rodney Gilfrey) and they still ask for "the statue opera" on occasion. (That's the only part they have watched or are interested in watching, or that I am interested in playing for them, until they're a lot older. Well, okay, "O statua gentilissima," but that's along the same lines.)

-Since you guys said it was fun for people to recognize music in opera, another short clip I showed was from Thais, because, well, I don't know if it's all Koreans or just my particular family, but all our extended relatives LOOOOOVE Meditation from Thais and all of us cousins who play violin (or piano, if that cousin happened to be near one of the cousins who played violin) have had to play that song approximately six million times, every time a third cousin twice removed came to visit. There was much groaning when the melody was revealed :)

-It turns out my aunt (uncle's wife) really likes opera!!!! We are already making plans to go to Salzburg or Italy sometime and watch opera :D (well, pipe dreams right now... I certainly wouldn't go until my kids are older)

(Part 1 was where I asked for help; Part 2 was an outtake of this post about emoting in opera)

Comments

[mildred_of_midgard]

*waves* Hi! Happy to see you contributing to the discussions in my small fandom. :D

re: Katte's protestations of Protestant faith in his last weeks, I would argue that while hoping for clemency from Friedrich Wilhelm might have been one big reason, another was his own family, specifically his own father, to whom hearing Katte died a good Protestant would be a comfort.

YES. Somewhere in some comment I said he was playing to 3 audiences, and I mentioned comforting his family as one of them. I do think that he was trying to present himself as a really good Protestant, which that last letter to his father makes really clear. And I meant everything about his last moments, including the "Lord Jesus."

Plus my initial reading, before I saw the "I only said it because it was fashionable!" argument, was "there are no atheists in foxholes." I.e. his philosophical questioning of Christianity may not have been strong enough to withstand the prospect of imminent death, or at least he may have been immersed in Christianity enough to be hedging his bets. (Now, I don't personally believe there are no atheists in foxholes, but I do believe that Pascal's Wager can kick in under moments of stress, depending on the individual in question.) It's still entirely possible. I just don't think we should take his protestation that he was never an atheist at face value, is all, or that he wouldn't have gone back to being an atheist in 1740 if he'd gotten that reprieve.

I also think that if he was constantly singing hymns and praying out loud, that was not only religious ostentation, but a way of mastering the fear by giving himself something to concentrate on, something soothing. (I tried to work this into a fic, but it hasn't clicked yet.) He was really clearly doing everything he could to keep from breaking down, and I think that was very much for his own sake too. As much as forcing Friedrich to watch was horrifically traumatic for Friedrich, I see no reason not to accept Katte's statement that it was a great consolation for him in his last moments.

Incidentally, no, I'm not with Fontane to the extent that I buy Friedrich Wilhelm wasn't motivated by vengefulness re: his son as well, but I do think that wanting Katte to be told that "his royal Majesty is sorry" goes against the idea of FW the gleeful sadist being all "die, boyfriend of my son! Die die die!"

I honestly think that several things were going through FW's head. One was a real fear of plots. One was gleeful sadism (telling Katte that "his royal Majesty is sorry" is not, imo, much better than telling Katte's grandfather that "he deserves to be torn to pieces with red hot pincers, but I'm so 'merciful' I'm just beheading him"). And another was legalistic rationalization. Also, there's vengefulness for past acts, yes, but more than that I think there's evidence for a campaign to break his son's will for purposes of future compliance. And that's where I think the rationalized sadism comes in. (Rationalized because I'm sure he really believed this was in Prussia's best interests as well as the immortal soul of his son; sadism because of things like being very emphatic with everyone at Küstrin that he wanted Fritz with a "broken heart.")

guaranteed to infuriate you because Fontane doesn't think it was just sadism or monarchical injustice on Friedrich Wilhelm's part

I've seen these arguments, and more than that I think I've seen this specific passage (I did put a lot of Fontane through Google Translate). It honestly doesn't infuriate me as much as the "It's a good thing FW did what he did, because that's what turned Frederick the Effeminate Flute-Player into Frederick the Great Prussian Expansionist!" arguments, grrr. Or the people who think FW was justified in his abuse of his son and get mad at Friedrich for trying to escape or hoping his father would die. Especially the ones who give young Friedrich and Wilhelmina a hard time about keeping an eager eye on their father's declining health, and then are totally sympathetic to Henry wanting Friedrich dead asap later in life. One or the other, people! Either it's justifiable or it's not.

Anyway. In general, I have spared cahn a comprehensive take on all my thinking on the issues at hand and their basis in the evidence in these comments, otherwise they would be so long no one would ever finish them, and she is already being nice to let me go on these long rambles and reply to them. :D But I'm glad to have the chance to expand a little (not completely, I need to go write some Katte fic) in chatting with you.

[selenak]

And that's where I think the rationalized sadism comes in. (Rationalized because I'm sure he really believed this was in Prussia's best interests as well as the immortal soul of his son; sadism because of things like being very emphatic with everyone at Küstrin that he wanted Fritz with a "broken heart.")

That's an excellent summary of what was likely going on in the King. I would also speculate on some internalized sexual hang-ups in that, let's face it, Friedrich Wilhelm was never happier than in male company and absolutely awkward and uncomfortable with women. (And not just when they were presented nude to him a la what August the Strong did in Dresden when FW and Fritz were visiting.) I would say "internalized homophobia" except that FW loathed heterosexual profligacy a la his father or August intensely as well, hence all those rants against mistresses (and he wasn't much happier with Fritz flirting with the Countess Orzelska in Dresden than he was with anything else, instead of going "yay, at least the boy shows heterosexual interest!). Otoh, all those children he and Sophia Charlotte had demonstrate that he wasn't impotent. So you have someone to whom any sexual outlet other than marriage is taboo, whose marriage has degenerated into constant emotional warfare, who might or might not feel drawn to men sexually as well as emotionally anyway - and I wouldn't be surprised that the sight of his son in love with anyone, especially (but not exclusively) a man, was just rubbing it in and additionally made him furious.

[mildred_of_midgard]

I have seen the "FW as repressed homosexual/bisexual" theory, have countered with his resentment of Fritz showing any heterosexual interests either, and in short agree with you about the generalized sexual hang-ups that we really can't untangle from this distance. It can be incredibly hard to tell apart homophobia, misogyny, and general sexual repression due to Christianity, and I think FW is one of those cases where I don't feel comfortable drawing conclusions more specific than "not a happy man." His Kinsey score will have to remain a mystery as far as I'm concerned.

I wouldn't be surprised that the sight of his son in love with anyone, especially (but not exclusively) a man, was just rubbing it in and additionally made him furious.

Wouldn't surprise me at all.

(Have also encountered the FW as woobie take, albeit not in fiction. I am torn between trying not to be a total hypocrite on the "Fritz was an abuser because he was abused and so we sympathize with him, but FW was just an abuser and so we hate him!" front, but also the many reasons it's complicated and their situations and reactions are not exactly equivalent, and also this is just my fandom and I can be wildly unfair if I want. I'm not condoning any behavior, voting anyone into power, or supporting anyone who harmed anyone living today. I'm just writing fic that no one will read about my lifelong problematic fave. :P)

Related: I think it's impossible to untangle "Fritz had an inherently low sex drive because some people do" from "Fritz had sexual repression traumatized into him" from this distance. It can be hard enough for people actively working on the question in therapy to arrive at a definitive answer for themselves, and a lot of people go back and forth! I just find myself hoping it was the former. We also don't know how much of the sex that was attributed to him he actually had, of course, so there's that.

[selenak]

Quite. So your take on Fredersdorff/Fritz? One German historian referred to Fredersdorff as "the Prussian Pompadour" (meaning not just favourite, but "favourite who at first has a sexual romance with the King which later fades away but remains emotionally important throughout the King's life, and is politically involved in ruling the Kingdom till death"). And Fritz did name him as one of the six people in his life he truly loved.

On a less serious and more "bizarre episode in the lives of German Royalty" note, the whole Dresden interlude is so bizarre that I feel we have to acquaint cahn with it. Since according to Wilhelmine, it went down roughly thusly:

"And then there was the time Dad and Fritz went on a state visit to Dresden when Fritz was 16. King August got them drunk, showed them around and then presented them with a naked beauty. Dad went scarlet and covered Fritz' eyes with his hands. Wasn't very effective. The naked beauty turned out to be the Countess Orzelska who was August's illegitimate daughter and his mistress. She also slept with one of her half brothers. And with Fritz, whom she deflowered during that visit. And here you thought we were the most dysfunctional German royals of our time! P.S. I'm not publishing this until years after my death."

[cahn]

HOLY COW.
Was she actually his illegitimate daughter and his mistress?!

Who were the six people?

[selenak]

As to the mistress part, I think the historical consensus is "can't be proven one way or the other". August had up to 200 known illegitimate kids, and she was definitely a favourite, but "having sex with anything that moves" doesn't necessarily translate into "being into incest as well". It certainly was gossip at the time, hence Wilhelmine mentioning it casually. At any rate, she was an interesting character; wiki sums up why here. (An entry which also illustrates why a gay boy still uncertain about his sexuality might have been drawn to her. He retained good memories and wrote to Voltaire decades later: "In my tenderest youth, she inspired two passions in me - you may have guessed, it was love and poetry. This little Miracle of nature, equipped with all the charms, had taste and tendresse and tried to share both with me. I succeeded with the lovemaking, but not so much with the poetry." (Disclaimer: it's always possible he was het-posing for Voltaire, of course, but given how insulting he could be about most people, especially women, this is still a remarkable Quote imo.)

The six: over to Mildred of Midgard.

[mildred_of_midgard]

So! The six people is an interesting list. It never made any sense to me until I went and read the original letter. It's not a list of the six people Frederick the Great loved most over the course of his life, as it's usually presented. It's a list of men living and serving in 1741 (i.e., not even halfway through his life, though I feel like the list is front-loaded in any case, so that may not matter too much) whose services he was recommending to his brother and heir presumptive in case he died in battle, and about whom he added the note "whom I have loved the most in my life". That explains why, for instance, Wilhelmine doesn't make the top six.

For this reason, the names won't mean anything to you, Cahn, but they're Keyserlingk, Jordan, Wartensleben, Hacke, Fredersdorf, & Eichel. (Funnily enough, I had the letter in question in my Chrome bookmarks, so I was able to pull it right up.)

Disclaimer: it's always possible he was het-posing for Voltaire, of course, but given how insulting he could be about most people, especially women, this is still a remarkable Quote imo.

Remarkable, but not totally out of character. Friedrich, in between vast amounts of misogyny, did sprinkle in some complimentary words about individual women (including ones he wasn't related to) with whom he had good relationships.

Of course, het-posing was also a thing that I'm pretty sure he did from time to time. Especially regarding his wife while his father was alive. It all makes it super hard to tell what's real and what's not.

My own guess is that he experimented with women when he was younger, possibly including the Countess, and decided against. Of course, he may have done the same with men and just taken longer to decide he was homoromantic and asexual. I am agnostic on whether his marriage was ever consummated. My guess is no, but I have low confidence in that guess. Pretty high confidence that EC would not have told on him, though, which makes it more plausible.

[cahn]

You are both amazing and all this is amazing.

And yes, mildred, you have correctly intuited that the names mean nothing to me; I was wondering things like "are there any family members on this list," "are there any women on this list," etc. So this answers my question quite well :)

[mildred_of_midgard]

The six: over to Mildred of Midgard.

Also, I'm just chortling here at how you *knew* I'd be on top of this one.

[selenak]

I couldn't imagine you not having found the other five and the circumstances in which they were named, because "loved best" is such a huge claim.

[selenak]

Oh, and I have something operatic for you. Like her brother, Wilhelmine also composed. In her opera Argenore, there is a significant difference between the print Version and the autograph version written in Wilhelmine's hand of the aria which Ormondo, unjustly condemned to execution, sings. This opera was first produced by her (in Bayreuth, the principality she'd married into) in 1740, i.e. exactly ten years after Katte's death, and here's what Ormondo sings in her handwritten Version: "I will fall, but you/cruel tyrant/will at the end repent too late/and you will say that my life/is admired instead of a pitied/ A test to the strong soul/calm and steadfast/enduring unfair punishment/for a guilt of which one is innocent." In the recitative before the aria, Ormondo sings: "That I don't want to die now isn't because of cowardice, but because I hope to see the ending of a despotic, cruel and thankless King".

(The printed Version of Argenore has the aria in question with a completely different text: "I fall, but I am like the high and proud oak, moving all the earth around it when it falls" etc.)

The aria in Question.

[cahn]

Wow, that is... something. Ouch. And, ahahahaha, the censors got to it?

[selenak]

Or maybe her husband. The opera also contained her venting about his mistress in very thin fictional disguise.

[mildred_of_midgard]

Quite. So your take on Fredersdorff/Fritz?

My canonical take is, as usual, agnostic on the issue of whether they had sex. I interpret Friedrich as intensely homoromantic with a low to nonexistent sex drive (again, unclear why). My fanon is that he had strong feelings for Fredersdorf and was semi-attracted in that he liked to look more than touch (I mean sexually--eighteenth century mores mean I imagine a fair bit of non-sexual touch). But that is not something I would defend as canonical, just one of many possible interpretations that I have selected for the character in my head.

The whole Dresden adventure is a riot from beginning to end, much like Wilhelmine's memoirs in general. *popcorn.gif*

Wilhelmine's memoirs

[selenak]

This is for cahn. A very shortend and paraphrased summary would go thusly:

Let me tell you all about my family. Dad: on the one hand, was always very proud that he singlehandedly changed Prussia from a bankrupt joke to a respected kingdom. Otoh, he was horrible to live with. I won’t run out of stories of him being violently abusive towards Fritz, me and Mom in this volume, reader.

Mom: on the one hand, Fritz & self owe her all for her appreciation for the arts, which Dad was always against. And she had a hard time with him. Otoh, I resent Mom, too. Not least for putting us on a war footing with Dad by making us promise we’d never marry anyone but our English cousins, and making us choose between him and her even before he went nuts on us. (She never forgave me for eventually marrying someone else, either.) Also, until I was eleven, my governess kept abusing me, and did Mom ever notice? Nope. It needed Fritz‘ governess to point out to her that mine would cripple me for life if she continued to be in charge of me.

Fritz: my dearest brother, whom I’m emotionally all over the place about, due to writing my memoirs during the three years interlude we were estranged. He was wonderful until he got on the throne. Thereafter, my moments of WTF, Fritz? Keep increasing.

*explanatory footnote from the Fritz/Wilhelmine correspondence about their three years estrangement: Fritz: you betrayed me by meeting Maria Theresia.
Wilhelmine: It was just the one time! She’s the empress, passing through Bayreuth, how could I not?
Fritz: You LIKED her, you traitor. She LIKED you. I hate you forever.
Wilhelmine: WTF, Fritz?*

My younger siblings: get only cameos in these memoirs. Like in this rare non-violent story of what happenened when Dad became a fan of the Preacher Mr. Francke, who made him feel he wasn’t pious enough. Original quote follows:

„Every afternoon, the King held us a sermon. His lackey sang a choral, in which we all had to join. The sermon we had to listen to with the same attention as if an apostle was speaking. My brother and myself got the giggles, and often, we just had to laugh. Then we were chastized by all the condemnation of the church, which we had to endure with repentant faces, hard as that was. In short, this dog Francke was at fault for us having to live like Trappists for a while. This exaggareted pietism even made the King hit on an even stranger idea. He decided to abdicate in favour of my brother. He only wanted to reserve an income of 10 000 Taler per annum for himself and wanted to retire to Wusterhausen with the Queen and his daughters. „There,“ he said, „I shall pray to God and organize the sowing of the fields while my wife and my daughters will work in the household. You,“ he addressed me, „are skillful, so you’ll be in charge of the clothing, sewing and laundry. Friederike is thrifty, she’ll supervise the kitchen. Charlotte will go to the market to shop for food, and my wife will be in charge of the younger children’s education.“ He even started to write down instructions for my brother.“

Prussian royal family: WTF, Dad?

FW: Okay, Fritz & self just got invited to Dresden, guess we’ll have to postpone the godly existence as normal pious citizens.

*Dresden interlude* Ensues.

FW: Maybe Wilhelmine should marry King August.
Sophia Dorothea: The guy who’s her godfather, spawned roughly 300 kids already and is potentially sleeping with at least one of them?

FW: You’re just hung up about those British marriages, aren’t you.

Re: Wilhelmine's memoirs

[mildred_of_midgard]

This is for cahn.

But deeply entertaining for me, as well as a highly accurate summary!

Re hundreds of illegitimate kids: though that is certainly what people like Wilhelmine said at the time, he certainly had a lot of them, and he probably had enough sex to be having 365 or whatever illegitimate kids, my understanding is that modern historiography sees the primary sources as rather tabloidy (Wilhelmine's memoirs are more entertaining than rigorous) and puts question marks around a bunch of those offspring, bringing the total "known" illegitimate children down to a significantly lower number than 200-400. But the attribution of some 300 illegitimate children to him should tell you everything you need to know about Augustus the Strong anyway, Cahn.

Fritz: You LIKED her, you traitor. She LIKED you. I hate you forever.
Wilhelmine: WTF, Fritz?

Also Fritz: *says nice things about Maria Theresia later in life, about how he respected her as a worthy opponent and a "saint" (presumably for putting up with him), after years of trashing her personally and making unprovoked war on her country* (At least so our sources say, I'm not sure we have this from the horse's mouth, but correct me if I'm wrong)
Everyone: WTF, Fritz?

Re: Wilhelmine's memoirs

[selenak]

Maria Theresia had her big 300th anniversary in 2017, so there were quite a lot of articles, books, broadcasts etc., and thus I can after googling come up with a direct quote from the horse's mouth, after her death in 1780: "Basically, I have always had great admiration for her, even during our martial disagreements. I have never been her enemy."

WTF, Fritz, indeed. Can't imagine what Maria Theresia would have said to that one, or rather, I can, since she could be very robust as well. Then again, other than their shared sense of duty and hard working nature, you could not have designed a more perfect opposite to Friedrich II than Maria Theresia if you tried, seriously, you couldn't, starting with the basics (Woman/man) and moving on to every area of their lives: married for love and remained in love with husband of choice till death/married to get out of prison, stayed away from wife thereafter; traditional Catholic versus free spirit/likely atheist; sixteen Kids, famously married all over Europe, versus childless monarch; loving parents (the worst MT's father ever did to her was not to prepare her for the succession, as he hoped to get a male heir until basically five minutes before his death, so she had to learn on the job and quickly) and secure childhood versus, well, childhood a la Hohenzollern and Nightmare adolescence; and so forth.

(Sidenote to amuse you both: one now forgotten German politician called Angela Merkel "the Maria Theresia of the Uckermark", meaning this as a put down while casting himself as Fritz as the same time. To which the rest of the journalists snorted and said, you are no Friedrich, Peter Gauweiler. Our Chancellor just ignored him.)

Additional irony, cahn: Maria Theresia's son Joseph II (the "too many notes" one from Amadeus, for non-historians) was a great admirer of Fritz, consciously modelled himself on him (in terms of being a modern monarch reforming civil and religious laws and cultivating philosphers & musicians, not in terms of invading other countries, and also in terms of personal demeanour (wearing uniform, not fancy costumes etc.). He went as far as arranging a personal meeting with him under the nome de plume "Graf Falkenstein" (which he also used when visiting sister Marie Antoinette in Paris), which included a shared opera visit. As this happened when Maria Theresia was still alive, she was less than thrilled but eventually okayed it.

ETA: A fanboy meets his Idol

Re: Wilhelmine's memoirs

[cahn]

This is amazing. (I know, I am saying this a lot. I need more adjectives to describe the combination of hilarity and WTF and feeling sorry for FW's children and sheer glee I'm feeling at all this high-powered history going back and forth.) Are her memoirs translated into English??

Re: Wilhelmine's memoirs

[mildred_of_midgard]

Yes! You can even access the translations online for free.

Volume 1
Volume 2

There are also Kindle versions (of what quality I do not know) on Amazon for a few dollars each, and of course hardcovers.

Fredersdorf

[mildred_of_midgard]

So your take on Fredersdorff/Fritz?

I have been reminded of the existence of the term "queerplatonic partnership." That's my take on Fredersdorf/Fritz, if you ask me to speculate beyond my more methodologically rigorous "totally agnostic" answer.

Okay, so something I've been wondering about, and hoping you might know. I've seen Fredersdorf described as one of "two or three people" that Fritz used du/tu with. (Fredersdorf, always appearing on these shortlists. ;) ) Who on earth are the others, do you know? Admittedly, I haven't done a comprehensive elimination of all Fritz's correspondents, but I looked at what to me were the most obvious candidates, and couldn't find another example. He's vousing everyone I can find! (It actually made me wonder if he had a different visceral reaction to "du" than "tu", in the same way that profanity often doesn't strike you as nearly as offensive in your non-native language.)

Re: Fredersdorf

[selenak]

I'm currently brushing up my Fritz knowledge by reading through a biography I hadn't read before, and though I'm only at the second Silesian war, the author has already quoted letters to several recipients where he's using du/tu - Wilhelmine (that I knew; from my recollection of their correspondance, they keep switching between tu and vous), Keyserling and in one case (the "You're my heir if I kick it in this battle" letter) August Wilhelm, though it's strictly vous with August W. on other occasions.

In any case: 18th century nobility throughout Europe was Vous/Ihr/Sie all the way, at least in writing, when talking to their nearest and dearest; Maria Theresia wrote "Vous" to Marie Antoinette throughout, and so did Joseph, though several anecdotes have it they used "du" when actually talking to her, for example.

A generation post Fritz, the explosion of German literature he so disdainfully ignored contributed to changing that. All the Sturm und Drang poets were really into calling each other Du. In literature, you have Carlos asking (very urgently) Posa to call him Du in Schiller's Don Carlos (I don't know how much of this passage made it into translation, cahn at their first reunion in the play because he can't bear the distance of Sie/Ihr. It's a sign of their different social standing that Faust in their second encounter says Du to Gretchen already while she still says Ihr to him. (And a sign they've had sex when she switches to Du as well.) And so forth.

Re: Fredersdorf

[mildred_of_midgard]

the author has already quoted letters to several recipients where he's using du/tu - Wilhelmine (that I knew; from my recollection of their correspondance, they keep switching between tu and vous), Keyserling and in one case (the "You're my heir if I kick it in this battle" letter) August Wilhelm, though it's strictly vous with August W. on other occasions.

Oh, interesting, thank you so much! That's what I get for spot-checking. Awesome.

18th century nobility throughout Europe was Vous/Ihr/Sie all the way, at least in writing, when talking to their nearest and dearest; Maria Theresia wrote "Vous" to Marie Antoinette throughout, and so did Joseph, though several anecdotes have it they used "du" when actually talking to her, for example.

I had noticed the predominance of vous/Sie in writing, and I had been wondering (for the purposes of my fic) how much people would code-switch their formality according to circumstance: public vs. private, written vs. spoken. It's good to know I wasn't totally off base there.

I also wondered how much to trust all the "Fritz"ing and "du"ing Katte does in Zeithain (especially given the execution scene, where all our sources report "vous" and "Katte", not "du" and "Hans"). Is my idea plausible that 18th century Katte, far enough along in their relationship, might be invited to speak that way to Crown Prince Friedrich in private, intimate moments, but would still be "vous/Your Royal Highness"ing him in all other contexts, including the execution with 150 witnesses?

Re: Fredersdorf

[selenak]

At a guess, in Zeithain the author simply makes a concession to modern sensibilities and assumes the more historical ignorant of his readers would be put off by two lovers calling each other by title and last name. (I think he's wrong; Stephen Frears's film version of Dangerous Liasons was a hit here, too, and the German dubbing correctly had everyone in the cast use "Sie" for each other, including post coital moments, with the only "du" being heard was Valmont adressing his servant. It was a smash hit over here, too.)

Is my idea plausible that 18th century Katte, far enough along in their relationship, might be invited to speak that way to Crown Prince Friedrich in private, intimate moments, but would still be "vous/Your Royal Highness"ing him in all other contexts, including the execution with 150 witnesses?

IMO yes, especially since by definition no one else would have been present in private, intimate moments to record it.

Re: Fredersdorf

[cahn]

ahahahaha, yes, the Schiller translation I have is an old one that distinguishes between "thou" and "you," and makes a big deal of "Call me thou!" I hadn't thought about it, but when I went back to look for that bit, indeed Carlos calls Posa "thou" pretty much constantly but Posa uses "you" until that bit. I wonder how a more modern translation would deal with it.

I didn't know that about Gretchen! I don't think the modern translation you pointed me to makes that distinction -- I'll have to go back and check now :)

Re: Fredersdorf

[selenak]

ndeed Carlos calls Posa "thou" pretty much constantly but Posa uses "you" until that bit

Mind you, Posa literally couldn't do otherwise by the etiquette in Schiller's life time since Carlos is the higher ranking party. (Incidentally, Carlos and Elisabeth never call each other "Du" throughout the play. Elisabeth as the Queen outranks Carlos, and she doesn't offer.)

I guess a modern English equivalent would have to do with first name use - i.e. Posa switching from "prince" or "your highness" to "Carlos"? Because I can't think of a way to convey the higher degree of intimacy otherwise. And yet it's still not the same, since everyone is so quickly on first names these days.

Incidentally, in modern German, you can call someone by their first name and still use "Sie", not "Du", which is, for example, what bosses often do with their long term employees. (New employees are Herr X and Frau Y and Sie, of course.) At the university, fellow students default to du, but outside that context it's usual that the older party offers "Du" to the younger one, and it would be rude for the younger one to use it unasked first.