*waves* Hi! Happy to see you contributing to the discussions in my small fandom. :D
re: Katte's protestations of Protestant faith in his last weeks, I would argue that while hoping for clemency from Friedrich Wilhelm might have been one big reason, another was his own family, specifically his own father, to whom hearing Katte died a good Protestant would be a comfort.
YES. Somewhere in some comment I said he was playing to 3 audiences, and I mentioned comforting his family as one of them. I do think that he was trying to present himself as a really good Protestant, which that last letter to his father makes really clear. And I meant everything about his last moments, including the "Lord Jesus."
Plus my initial reading, before I saw the "I only said it because it was fashionable!" argument, was "there are no atheists in foxholes." I.e. his philosophical questioning of Christianity may not have been strong enough to withstand the prospect of imminent death, or at least he may have been immersed in Christianity enough to be hedging his bets. (Now, I don't personally believe there are no atheists in foxholes, but I do believe that Pascal's Wager can kick in under moments of stress, depending on the individual in question.) It's still entirely possible. I just don't think we should take his protestation that he was never an atheist at face value, is all, or that he wouldn't have gone back to being an atheist in 1740 if he'd gotten that reprieve.
I also think that if he was constantly singing hymns and praying out loud, that was not only religious ostentation, but a way of mastering the fear by giving himself something to concentrate on, something soothing. (I tried to work this into a fic, but it hasn't clicked yet.) He was really clearly doing everything he could to keep from breaking down, and I think that was very much for his own sake too. As much as forcing Friedrich to watch was horrifically traumatic for Friedrich, I see no reason not to accept Katte's statement that it was a great consolation for him in his last moments.
Incidentally, no, I'm not with Fontane to the extent that I buy Friedrich Wilhelm wasn't motivated by vengefulness re: his son as well, but I do think that wanting Katte to be told that "his royal Majesty is sorry" goes against the idea of FW the gleeful sadist being all "die, boyfriend of my son! Die die die!"
I honestly think that several things were going through FW's head. One was a real fear of plots. One was gleeful sadism (telling Katte that "his royal Majesty is sorry" is not, imo, much better than telling Katte's grandfather that "he deserves to be torn to pieces with red hot pincers, but I'm so 'merciful' I'm just beheading him"). And another was legalistic rationalization. Also, there's vengefulness for past acts, yes, but more than that I think there's evidence for a campaign to break his son's will for purposes of future compliance. And that's where I think the rationalized sadism comes in. (Rationalized because I'm sure he really believed this was in Prussia's best interests as well as the immortal soul of his son; sadism because of things like being very emphatic with everyone at Küstrin that he wanted Fritz with a "broken heart.")
guaranteed to infuriate you because Fontane doesn't think it was just sadism or monarchical injustice on Friedrich Wilhelm's part
I've seen these arguments, and more than that I think I've seen this specific passage (I did put a lot of Fontane through Google Translate). It honestly doesn't infuriate me as much as the "It's a good thing FW did what he did, because that's what turned Frederick the Effeminate Flute-Player into Frederick the Great Prussian Expansionist!" arguments, grrr. Or the people who think FW was justified in his abuse of his son and get mad at Friedrich for trying to escape or hoping his father would die. Especially the ones who give young Friedrich and Wilhelmina a hard time about keeping an eager eye on their father's declining health, and then are totally sympathetic to Henry wanting Friedrich dead asap later in life. One or the other, people! Either it's justifiable or it's not.
Anyway. In general, I have spared cahn a comprehensive take on all my thinking on the issues at hand and their basis in the evidence in these comments, otherwise they would be so long no one would ever finish them, and she is already being nice to let me go on these long rambles and reply to them. :D But I'm glad to have the chance to expand a little (not completely, I need to go write some Katte fic) in chatting with you.
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Date: 2019-08-18 02:35 pm (UTC)re: Katte's protestations of Protestant faith in his last weeks, I would argue that while hoping for clemency from Friedrich Wilhelm might have been one big reason, another was his own family, specifically his own father, to whom hearing Katte died a good Protestant would be a comfort.
YES. Somewhere in some comment I said he was playing to 3 audiences, and I mentioned comforting his family as one of them. I do think that he was trying to present himself as a really good Protestant, which that last letter to his father makes really clear. And I meant everything about his last moments, including the "Lord Jesus."
Plus my initial reading, before I saw the "I only said it because it was fashionable!" argument, was "there are no atheists in foxholes." I.e. his philosophical questioning of Christianity may not have been strong enough to withstand the prospect of imminent death, or at least he may have been immersed in Christianity enough to be hedging his bets. (Now, I don't personally believe there are no atheists in foxholes, but I do believe that Pascal's Wager can kick in under moments of stress, depending on the individual in question.) It's still entirely possible. I just don't think we should take his protestation that he was never an atheist at face value, is all, or that he wouldn't have gone back to being an atheist in 1740 if he'd gotten that reprieve.
I also think that if he was constantly singing hymns and praying out loud, that was not only religious ostentation, but a way of mastering the fear by giving himself something to concentrate on, something soothing. (I tried to work this into a fic, but it hasn't clicked yet.) He was really clearly doing everything he could to keep from breaking down, and I think that was very much for his own sake too. As much as forcing Friedrich to watch was horrifically traumatic for Friedrich, I see no reason not to accept Katte's statement that it was a great consolation for him in his last moments.
Incidentally, no, I'm not with Fontane to the extent that I buy Friedrich Wilhelm wasn't motivated by vengefulness re: his son as well, but I do think that wanting Katte to be told that "his royal Majesty is sorry" goes against the idea of FW the gleeful sadist being all "die, boyfriend of my son! Die die die!"
I honestly think that several things were going through FW's head. One was a real fear of plots. One was gleeful sadism (telling Katte that "his royal Majesty is sorry" is not, imo, much better than telling Katte's grandfather that "he deserves to be torn to pieces with red hot pincers, but I'm so 'merciful' I'm just beheading him"). And another was legalistic rationalization. Also, there's vengefulness for past acts, yes, but more than that I think there's evidence for a campaign to break his son's will for purposes of future compliance. And that's where I think the rationalized sadism comes in. (Rationalized because I'm sure he really believed this was in Prussia's best interests as well as the immortal soul of his son; sadism because of things like being very emphatic with everyone at Küstrin that he wanted Fritz with a "broken heart.")
guaranteed to infuriate you because Fontane doesn't think it was just sadism or monarchical injustice on Friedrich Wilhelm's part
I've seen these arguments, and more than that I think I've seen this specific passage (I did put a lot of Fontane through Google Translate). It honestly doesn't infuriate me as much as the "It's a good thing FW did what he did, because that's what turned Frederick the Effeminate Flute-Player into Frederick the Great Prussian Expansionist!" arguments, grrr. Or the people who think FW was justified in his abuse of his son and get mad at Friedrich for trying to escape or hoping his father would die. Especially the ones who give young Friedrich and Wilhelmina a hard time about keeping an eager eye on their father's declining health, and then are totally sympathetic to Henry wanting Friedrich dead asap later in life. One or the other, people! Either it's justifiable or it's not.
Anyway. In general, I have spared cahn a comprehensive take on all my thinking on the issues at hand and their basis in the evidence in these comments, otherwise they would be so long no one would ever finish them, and she is already being nice to let me go on these long rambles and reply to them. :D But I'm glad to have the chance to expand a little (not completely, I need to go write some Katte fic) in chatting with you.