Among Others (Jo Walton)
May. 18th, 2019 11:15 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahn3+/5 - This came up in the discussion of Lifelode and I promised I'd write about it.
I found the main character (Mori) only partially believable. The believable part was how she was believably awkward and prickly and judgmental as a teenager who wasn't really all that used to interacting with other teenagers. The not-so-believable part was that Mori had all these Opinions about books that I felt were way too sophisticated and profound for a teenager -- I suppose I was probably on the less profound and way less self-aware end as a teenager compared to many (most?) of you reading this, so maybe it's just me, but when I was a teenager my opinions were on the order of "I really liked that!" and "I thought that was weird but I can't say why," not these clever and articulate arguments and opinions that Mori has, that fit much better with (in my opinion) a middle-agedauthorial voice person than a teenager.
And, you know, it didn't make a darn bit of difference that I didn't find Mori believable in that way, because this book was clearly written as a love letter to SF, and the way that SF changes and saves you, and being one of those kids who read a whole bunch of those books Mori read (not all, and many of them I got to later than Mori did, but I've read many of them if not most) and was changed and saved by them, I couldn't help but respond strongly to that even though I could see quite clearly how I was being manipulated, and I actually really enjoyed Mori's sophisticated opinions because they fit with the sorts of conversations I want to be having about those books now, even if I wasn't capable of having them then.
I had heard that it sort of plays into this idea of being a book geek being The Only Way, which is sort of damaging, and I wasn't sure if I would like that because, for example, my daughter isn't going to be a book geek (or if she is, there's a very good chance she won't read the books that I consider really good), and I don't want anyone to think that makes her a lesser person. This is definitely a Thing in the book, though I didn't find it as much of a problem as I was expecting, partially because I'd been warned in advance, and partially because of its dreamlike impressionistic feel. Also, Mori may be highly judgmental and dismiss those who are Not Her Sort out of hand, but she does feel very young in the way she relates to the world in a non-SF sort of way, and I was young in that sort of highly judgmental way myself, so we can hope that she grows into a perhaps-highly-judgmental adult who can sometimes occasionally remember that not everyone is or should be exactly like me. I mean her. :P :)
...So I wrote that, and then I looked for / was pointed to various reviews/thoughts on this book, and it's interesting that I framed it above as "a love letter to SF" when many other people saw it (rightly, I think) as a love letter toSF fandom . I think because I have never really been part of in-person SF fandom in the way that I saw in the book, but I have read quite a lot of those books and so I naturally connected to that (and to discussing it through the written word, as well). Relatedly, I suppose it's partially that the way books happened to change me was not through people or through a community, but primarily through the texts themselves (people and community came later, and for the books she talks about sometimes much later); and partially because of the strong implication (vague spoiler, I guess) that Mori may have actually made up her fellow community of readers. If I had had magic at that age and I had been able to make up a community of like-minded people, I'd have done it too, and with rather fewer ethical qualms (at least, at the time) than Mori had. (Did I mention I was not a very self-aware child? It's a very good thing I didn't have anything nearly as powerful as magic.) I suppose there's her father, as well, but he's also so very vague that he never really registered to me as a real character either. The solipsistic thread also made it rather ambiguous to me whether in the end it's really a good thing that the people she connects with are solely the people who talk about books with her; is she only really connecting with herself? (I have no way of knowing whether Walton meant that intentionally, but that does echo a bit how I feel about SF fandom; it's a wonderful thing, and I could easily see myself, especially if I'd encountered it much earlier in life, living almost wholly inside it with very little connection outside and being very happy like that, perhaps more happy than I am living outside of it, but... I do feel like it wouldn't be good for me, overall.)
It does have a plot, but the plot is sort of secondary, to the point where I don't remember a lot about it; the heart of the book isn't the plot, it's SF and talking to people about SF, and those are the parts that I (perhaps obviously) remember.
(It's sort of interesting, though -- I'm currently reading Walton's Informal History of the Hugos, and although I can be ambivalent about Walton's fiction I am so not ambivalent about her book criticism. I love it to bits and pieces. It's basically my idealized version of Among Others.)
I found the main character (Mori) only partially believable. The believable part was how she was believably awkward and prickly and judgmental as a teenager who wasn't really all that used to interacting with other teenagers. The not-so-believable part was that Mori had all these Opinions about books that I felt were way too sophisticated and profound for a teenager -- I suppose I was probably on the less profound and way less self-aware end as a teenager compared to many (most?) of you reading this, so maybe it's just me, but when I was a teenager my opinions were on the order of "I really liked that!" and "I thought that was weird but I can't say why," not these clever and articulate arguments and opinions that Mori has, that fit much better with (in my opinion) a middle-aged
And, you know, it didn't make a darn bit of difference that I didn't find Mori believable in that way, because this book was clearly written as a love letter to SF, and the way that SF changes and saves you, and being one of those kids who read a whole bunch of those books Mori read (not all, and many of them I got to later than Mori did, but I've read many of them if not most) and was changed and saved by them, I couldn't help but respond strongly to that even though I could see quite clearly how I was being manipulated, and I actually really enjoyed Mori's sophisticated opinions because they fit with the sorts of conversations I want to be having about those books now, even if I wasn't capable of having them then.
I had heard that it sort of plays into this idea of being a book geek being The Only Way, which is sort of damaging, and I wasn't sure if I would like that because, for example, my daughter isn't going to be a book geek (or if she is, there's a very good chance she won't read the books that I consider really good), and I don't want anyone to think that makes her a lesser person. This is definitely a Thing in the book, though I didn't find it as much of a problem as I was expecting, partially because I'd been warned in advance, and partially because of its dreamlike impressionistic feel. Also, Mori may be highly judgmental and dismiss those who are Not Her Sort out of hand, but she does feel very young in the way she relates to the world in a non-SF sort of way, and I was young in that sort of highly judgmental way myself, so we can hope that she grows into a perhaps-highly-judgmental adult who can sometimes occasionally remember that not everyone is or should be exactly like me. I mean her. :P :)
...So I wrote that, and then I looked for / was pointed to various reviews/thoughts on this book, and it's interesting that I framed it above as "a love letter to SF" when many other people saw it (rightly, I think) as a love letter to
It does have a plot, but the plot is sort of secondary, to the point where I don't remember a lot about it; the heart of the book isn't the plot, it's SF and talking to people about SF, and those are the parts that I (perhaps obviously) remember.
(It's sort of interesting, though -- I'm currently reading Walton's Informal History of the Hugos, and although I can be ambivalent about Walton's fiction I am so not ambivalent about her book criticism. I love it to bits and pieces. It's basically my idealized version of Among Others.)
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Date: 2019-05-19 04:23 am (UTC)I suppose I was probably on the less profound and way less self-aware end as a teenager compared to many (most?) of you reading this
Not me! I don't think I had the ability to articulate intelligent opinions about novels until sometime after I finished grad school. I could barely even summarize a book, much less evaluate it. I could spot factual inaccuracies. That was about it.
Semi-tangentially, I lived so much inside my head that pretty much any book that depicts anyone under the age of 20 having the ability to notice anything going on around them strikes me as unrealistic. Like when Hermione sets fire to Snape's robes because he's staring intently at Harry--at that age, I literally did not have the skill of telling what direction people were looking in. I did not believe it was possible, and got upset if anyone claimed to be able to tell what anyone was looking at. I assumed they were lying.
I now understand, intellectually, that 99% of non-autistic kids were more attuned to the world around them than I was, but I still, on a visceral level, find it bizarre when fictional children or teenagers are both capable of and motivated to relate to the world in a way that I couldn't conceive of doing for another 10-15 years. Which is like, all kids and teenagers in books, because a book with me as the protagonist wouldn't sell. :P Even I don't write protagonists like me.
On the topic of Among Others specifically, it's been a few years since I read it, and I only read it once, so I don't remember it well enough to respond in any kind of detail to your review. I'll just say that I reviewed it after I read it, and, as you can see, my review didn't engage with absolutely anything having to do with books, sci-fi, or fandom.
That's because that part left me completely cold. Which is perhaps surprising, since it's a book about a teenage girl who loves sci-fi, but...without remembering details, all I can say is that the way she related to books had nothing to do with how I related to books, or any appeal for me, so she might as well have been interested in trainspotting or something for all the book did for me emotionally.
There's also the fact that I was never interested in those particular sci-fi books, but at some level that doesn't matter. There are books that could make trainspotting interesting despite my total lack of interest in it, and there are books that can make my favorite things boring. This was somewhere in the middle on both counts.
Relatedly, I suppose it's partially that the way books happened to change me was not through people or through a community, but primarily through the texts themselves
Hard same. Community, what community? My only community is talking about the Tillermans with you. :P
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Date: 2019-05-20 04:25 am (UTC)I'm not sure if I could tell in which way people were looking. I didn't tend to look at people's eyes so I am actually not sure. (I also thought that it was natural for *all* math geeks never to paritcularly care about looking in people's eyes and was shocked to find -- this was after E was born -- that no, actually, most people look at other people's eyes without training it as a learned skill as I did.)
Heh, though, re our differences, yeah, as we've discussed before, how we relate to books and (because of that) what books we like are totally different :) I do agree that you wouldn't be any more interested in any book mentioned if you hadn't been interested in it already -- it didn't make me want to read anything that I hadn't read yet, for instance (except that Jo Walton does seem to like many of the same things I do, so presumably I would like those books too).
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Date: 2019-05-20 04:38 am (UTC)Pointing was something I could follow! But the idea that you could look at someone's eyes and gather information about the direction was outside my realm of belief. I think I *looked* at people's eyes, but I didn't know how to parse information from them.
I also find myself responding with flat disbelief to any book where a child or young adolescent is able to interpret someone's facial expression and attribute emotion to it, without some really overt signal such as a big smile or tears. I'm even more disbelieving if a character notices a facial expression, remembers it without understanding it for many years, and someday finally understands what the other person was thinking/feeling. It may be possible for other people, maybe even most other people, but it feels so impossible to me that it always jolts me out of the book.
I do agree that you wouldn't be any more interested in any book mentioned if you hadn't been interested in it already -- it didn't make me want to read anything that I hadn't read yet, for instance
Okay, that's interesting to know!
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Date: 2019-05-22 04:25 am (UTC)Heh. Having been around children a bunch now, I can say the first, at least, is possible! Though not for E, and I assume not for me either although my memory of childhood things is really bad. I mean, I can barely do the first thing now, as a middle-aged adult, and I don't think I could ever do the second.
Heh, I think I just read a lot of these books when I was little and figured someday I would be old enough to be able to do that?
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Date: 2019-05-23 11:25 am (UTC)I'm pretty sure I can't do that. I'd have so much doubt about whether I was really reinterpreting the memory or modifying it. As to the other... I have no idea to what extent I could interpret facial expression at different ages, which makes me assume I tracked close to whatever the average is, because no one ever commented on it. Interesting to think about. The closest thing I remember actively learning is to keep my eyes off my feet when walking, so as not to collide with strangers.
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Date: 2019-05-25 02:29 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-05-23 11:17 am (UTC)Mori was the character in fiction I'd most have liked to talk to -- and I think one of my diaries from the times say 'I would do karass-magic' on its back page. (I read Cat's Cradle expecting a similar emotional tone from both the book and the word 'karass', which... really not so much). I don't think I'll ever again love this book as much as I did when I was sixteen/seventeen, but I'm going to have that memory whenever I read it.
...not these clever and articulate arguments and opinions that Mori has, that fit much better with (in my opinion) a middle-aged authorial voice person than a teenager.
My father reviewed science fiction and fantasy novels through my whole childhood, and talking in detail about what we thought of books was one of the defining things we did (and still do). So I had an absolute bedrock of book-talk, but I took quite a while to encounter anyone outside of that who was interested in it. When I went to high school I was looking for that interest but didn't find it, so I'd have been ready to accept a middle-aged authorial voice for Mori. I already talked a lot about books with one of those. I'll be interested to see next reread whether Mori still seems solid as a character to me. (Especially now I've read What Makes This Book So Great?)
I've wondered sometimes about the taste in books of any children I end up having, because my taste seems to have been a weirdly direct imprint from my parents, without anything that felt like an attempt to push it on me. (Hmm. Maybe I did karass-magic and created my family? A strong bit of magic, to make me forget not having them. Or maybe one of them created me -- except no, I'm pretty sure my parents would both have followed that idea with '...and that is incredibly disturbing, so we won't.' I was going to say anyway that what you said about parenting sounds good and sensible, but in the context of child-creating magic... yeah, more so.)
I have strong memories of the magic in Among Others too, is the other thing, those spare set-pieces. I was enthusiastic about Wales for years.
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Date: 2019-05-24 01:55 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-05-25 04:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-05-25 04:07 am (UTC)I confess to feeling a little jealous about your father! I found some people in late high school to share books with, but I'm pretty sure I couldn't talk about them in that kind of way at all -- maybe a couple of my friends could and felt frustrated that I couldn't? Although I do remember going to college and expecting it to be like Tam Lin, and maybe it would have been had I majored in English (I majored in physics).
I have two kids, and as I said it's rather looking like the older one isn't going to like exactly the same things her dad and I do, although I suppose she's still too young to tell really. She likes L'Engle and Harry Potter and Narnia and all that okay, so there's that. She's Asperger's, so she honestly would rather read nonfiction which doesn't have so many people having emotions and inferencing and so on. My neurotypical son I suspect will end up a little closer to us, but it's hard to tell as he's not reading anything any more complicated than The Grinch Who Stole Christmas right now. Which he loves, so he has at least some taste :)
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Date: 2019-05-26 07:19 am (UTC)I read Tam Lin in third year of university. Reality does not compare, and I suppose I should say thank goodness, since one of my majors has been Classics.
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Date: 2019-05-23 12:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-05-25 04:16 am (UTC)Re not being That Kid:
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Date: 2019-05-26 04:04 am (UTC)It's hard for me to say whether it's good Mori connects to people through books. Many of her other routes to connection have challenges. Her mother is, well, one of the problems; her father is terrible, and his sisters are a threat to Mori's connection to magic, which she doesn't want to give up. There's an English-Welsh issue with a lot of her classmates. Once in boarding school, Mori's isolated from a lot of non-school community options. We do see Mori integrated with her mother's family in Wales, which I'd argue points to life outside books.
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Date: 2019-05-27 05:31 am (UTC)That makes a lot of sense, about her other routes to connection (in England particularly) having challenges but being integrated in Wales. It still seems a little... narrowly-focused?... that all her connections when she's at school involve books. ...And now I'm thinking about how I am in several different communities but each of those communities is pretty separated from one another, like, there are maybe a couple of people at church who like SF but that's not generally what we talk about!