(no subject)

[cahn]

Ok, I have a few Verdi operas left (well, a bunch of early ones, but I think I'll just take them as they come because I don't think I like them as much -- well, maybe I should ask, is it worth it to watch Luisa Miller?):

Il Trovatore
Un ballo in maschera
La forza del destino
Aida
Falstaff

(I have listened through Otello and I'm planning to watch it soon, which is why it's not on the list.)

(Also, Les vepres siciliennes is a bit harder for me to find and no Opera in English recording so it's not on the list either, but I can put it back on :) )

I'd ideally like to watch these in order from what I'd least like to most like, with an exception for anything that might get nominated for Yuletide (which will bump it up the queue if I start getting slow at watching). Given what I like (sympathetic characters, characters who aren't just caricatures, non-love-story dynamics, family dynamics, trios and quartets, baritones, friendship and loyalty), what order should I watch these in?

(zdenka, I suspect you can just order these in your own preference because I think our ids are very similar for this kind of thing)

Comments

[zdenka]

Hee. :)

My own order of preference, from least-liked to most-liked, is:

Falstaff
La forza del destino
Un ballo in maschera
Il Trovatore
Aida

Falstaff is last for me not because it's bad -- objectively, it's a very good opera, and better then some of the others on the list -- but it interests me less because it's a comedy and the stakes are much lower. Also because I get easily bored of cuckolding jokes.

I can say a little more about the others if you like and why I'd personally put them in that order, or I can wait and let you discover these operas for yourself. :)

Luisa Miller isn't an opera that I personally care about, but to be honest I don't know it very well. I've seen recordings once or twice. I was in a scene from it in an opera workshop, years ago, but it wasn't one of the ones that stuck with me.

I do think you should watch/listen to The Sicilian Vespers if you can. It might be easier to find in Italian, maybe? I did a translation of the whole opera a while back (from the French version), and if it would help you I'd be happy to send you the files.

[cahn]

On Falstaff: That makes perfect sense.

If you would like, I wouldn't mind hearing some about why you like them in that order, but I'm okay either way, and maybe no big spoilers :) (Unless there's something ridiculous that I should know, especially about the ending -- like, I was very glad to be spoiled about Charles V in Don Carlo and the ridiculous suicide ending of Ernani, because otherwise I think I would have been rather disappointed. Well, okay, from the minute he gives Silva the horn it's telegraphed from miles away, but still!)

OK! I will put Sicilian Vespers on the list. And I would love to have the translation, that would really help. :)

[zdenka]

I don't think I have your email -- if you give it to me, I'll email you the translation. If you don't want to post it publicly you can email me, zdenka.waldner at gmail.

[cahn]

Ah, thank you! raspberryhunter at gmail :)

[zdenka]

More opera babbling ahoy:

La forza del destino is next to last for me because it's kind of depressing (I mean even aside from the usual Verdi-ness). There's so much suffering caused by stupid bad luck (or fate, if you prefer), and every time it seems like things might be okay for the characters, nope, there's another plot twist. For example, early in the opera one character tries to diffuse a hostile situation by throwing down his pistol; it goes off and accidentally kills another character. Things like that.

The rest of the suffering is caused by societal racism in general and the baritone's racism in particular (the tenor is half Inca, and tragically the baritone can't get past that). I should add that the racism is clearly not endorsed by the opera. I'm also not into the random crowd scenes that don't advance the plot. The ending also has slightly ridiculous levels of unnecessary tragedy. But I think there are plenty of things you'll like about it: there's some very good and dramatic music, and the relationship between the tenor and the baritone is intense. You might actually like this one better than Ballo, though I can't say for sure.

Un ballo in maschera: I like Verdi's courtly dance music and sea music and martial music, and the relationship between the tenor and the baritone. (And there's a soprano pageboy whose arias are fun for me to sing.) Less fond of it because infidelity/adultery plots are not my favorite thing and it makes the tenor less sympathetic for me.

Ooh, my favorite ridiculous thing about this opera: It was originally about the historical King Gustave III of Sweden, but the censors wouldn't let them do that, so after a lot of argument Verdi and his librettist changed the setting to colonial Boston (my very own hometown). And I love it, because there are so many things in the plot that make no damn sense if the tenor is the governor of Massachusetts rather than the King of Sweden, and it totally cracks me up. :D People sometimes put on productions that move the action back to Sweden, but I think that's just silly. :P This opera is set in Boston, accept no substitutes!

Trovatore:

I like this opera a lot (especially the baritone villain), just not quite as much as Aida. I've seen people say that the plot is confusing, but I don't think it is? A minor character reveals some backstory in the first number, but if you get that I think the rest follows logically (or at least, you know, by opera logic).

This falls under disturbing rather than ridiculous, but two arias describe a past event which includes an infant being burned alive. (Also several references/descriptions of an adult woman being burned under suspicion of witchcraft.)

Aida:

I really like how Verdi sets personal feelings against duty to one's people and country in this one. There's all this contrast of public vs. private, and individuals having strong emotional reactions that they have to conceal while in the middle of a crowd feeling the other way. It has great ensembles and chorus numbers (the Triumphal March scene is justifiably famous).

And none of these operas end happily, but I think you're used to that from Verdi by now!

[cahn]

...this is pretty much exactly the kind of thing I need to know :) In particular, I am very glad to know about the stupid bad luck, because that's the sort of thing that would really bother me going into it cold -- also the infidelity/jealousy. (I had not even realized this was a problem for me -- I don't always have a problem with it in books, although I usually find it kind of boring -- until halfway through listening to Otello, which I'd really really enjoyed up until then.) (Of course the jealousy plot wasn't a surprise at all! But it had been so long since I'd read the play Othello -- and I don't think I'd ever watched it -- that even though I remembered it wasn't my favorite Shakespeare I didn't remember why, and really when I read it back in high school/college I'm not sure I would have been able to articulate it anyway.) Also good to know about Sweden vs. Boston, so now I can calibrate my expectations of the governor of Boston accordingly! :)

[zdenka]

Oh good, I'm glad the info is useful! I'm probably making some wrong guesses either way about what to warn you for or not, but I'll try to keep getting a sense of your preferences there.

It doesn't ruin my enjoyment of the opera, but I can definitely see how some things in Ot(h)ello can be a squick.

[cahn]

Yeah, I still loved the music! I'm actually surprised it was squicky for me. I think it's the intensity of it, and how out-of-control Othello (the character) gets -- and I definitely have a tendency for disliking plots where if the characters actually talked to/trusted one another things would be much better -- thus I have ALL THE FEELS for when Carlos decides to trust Rodrigo with his letters :)

[zdenka]

Oh, I have to tell you a piece of trivia that I just found out! The libretto for what became Les Vepres Siciliennes was originally written for Donizetti, but Donizetti didn't finish the opera before his death. The opera house later gave it to Verdi instead, with a change of setting and time period. The original setting? The Spanish occupation of Flanders in the reign of Philip II. (!) Guy de Montfort was originally the Duke of Alba. Isn't that crazy?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_duc_d%27Albe

[cahn]

...I think I have to go listen to/watch Les Vepres Siciliennes now :P :) That is totally crazy and I love it!

Vepres libretto?

[justplainsavannahd]

Hi! Could you please send your translation of the Vepres libretto? I've been looking for a translation of the French version for practically forever. Thanks!

[alcanis_ivennil]

Forza has a rather ridiculous libretto, but a lot of tenor/baritone sexual tension :D


Trovatore was my first ever opera, and I still love the baritone so much - he's a mess and quite a villain, but he also has this heart-meltingly beautiful aria. And the plot is just WILD.

[cahn]

Ah, great! I seem to have gotten stuck on Don Carlo for quite a while, although I've listened to the Ballo Opera in English now, and I'm going to ask Forza and Ballo from my RL opera friend as soon as I return her Faust and Don Giovanni :) (And the Vespers, if she has it, but it seems to be pretty hard to find.) And Trovatore is next on my list to listen to in Opera in English :D

[alcanis_ivennil]

If you go for Trovatore, I recommend the 2015 Met Live in HD - the production is pretty good, the cast is excellent, and it was a rather special evening.

Alternatively: the '78 Vienna version, with Karajan and another stellar cast.

[cahn]

Ahhhh, great! I will look that one up for sure. I am definitely going for Trovatore!! The only question is how long it will take me to get there, as I'm saving it as one of the later ones :)