Oh -- I think I must have known this once but I didn't remember at all. Gosh. Yeah, that would do it. I suppose it's probably more fun to imagine some evil mastermind is behind everything, though.
Yes, but that's just not how Revolutions work. BTW, in Hilary Mantel's A Place of Greater Safety, which is the French Revolution from the pov of the revolutionaries, with the three main characters being Robespierre, Danton and Desmoulins, you have these early scenes where Chloderos de Laclos (as in, the author of Les Liasons Dangereuses, who was in rl works for the Duc d'Orleans, hangs out with some of the revolutionaries before they are revolutionaries with the idea that his guy will get more popular (he was definitely the most popular member of the royal family in pre revolutionary France) while the cousins at Versailles get trashed, but again, he can't even imagine a revolution, he thinks this is all so Louis will be forced to make Cousin Philippe his PM (different title), so to speak.
The tv series can't resist the historical in-joke of letting Cagliostro prophecy that no son of Louis and MA will end up on the throne of France but a prince of the blood from the Orleans line will, and future Philippe Égalité thinks that means him and is gleeful, but of course it means his son (introduced early in s2 as a kid), Louis Philippe, who will in fact be the last French king, full stop. (Since Louis Philippe did live through the original French Revolution, he high tails it out of France practically the moment the February 1848 revolution starts. Been there, Dad lost his head, thanks but no thanks. Anyway, because Cousin Chartres/Orleans sided with the Revolutionaries until he lost his own head, and Louis Philippe got to the throne by a revolution himself - the 1830 one which deposed Louis XVI's last brother, Artois aka Charles X, Lafayette's frenemy from school, - hardcore French monarchists argue that IF there were a King in France again, it would have to be from the Spanish Bourbon line, since the Orleans line discredited itself twice over.
Hee. So the scriptwriters ship MA/Louis and this ship is getting in the way! :)
LOL yes. I mean, they don't treat Fersen as badly as the writers of the Borgias tv series treated Lucrezia's second husband for gtting in the way of Cesare/Lucrezia, because at least poor Fersen is not vilified, but I recognize the same "away with the canon love interest getting in the way of my ship!" impulse. I mean, "canon", since we still don't know whether or not MA and Fersen ever had sex. But they certainly had an intense relationship, he was devoted above and beyond and there when it counted. Why they didn't write him simply as her devoted platonic knight if they didn't want him to get any shippers, I don't know. (Unless it's to characterize Louis as extra noble and devoted, since in the tv show he accepts Fersen after some struggle for the sake of MA's happiness and better genetics for the younger kids.)
She doesn't want to bring the monarchy down or has anything to avenge, she just wants to have a piece of the cake, as much as she can get, and Rohan is a great mark because he's just that arrogant and dumb and egotastic. Most of the time, you cheer for her pulling this off.
This all sounds fantastic!
It was definitely my favourite thing about s2. I don't know why anyone would feel they have to woobify Jeanne or give her backstory trauma or an actual revolutionary agenda. The 18th century was full of charismatic inventive grifters and conpeople (see also: Casanova, and the alchemy boys Cagliostro & St. Germain), and she was probably the most succesful publically known female one.
Incidentally, having read Feuchtwanger's novel, you might appreciate that it has Beaumarchais add Figaro's monologue very last minute - Act V, Scene 2 - in Mozart's opera, he just sings about "oh, these women", believing Susanna actually is now willing to have sex with the count, in the play, that's just his starting point, with this passage being the one that got censorship in a huff, for Figaro continues: Non, monsieur le comte, vous ne l'aurez pas. vous ne l'aurez pas. Parce que vous êtes un grand seigneur, vous vous croyez un grand génie ! noblesse, fortune, un rang, des places, tout cela rend si fier ! Qu'avez-vous fait pour tant de biens ? vous vous êtes donné la peine de naître, et rien de plus : du reste, homme assez ordinaire ! tandis que moi, morbleu, perdu dans la foule obscure, il m'a fallu déployer plus de science et de calculs pour subsister seulement, qu'on n'en a mis depuis cent ans à gouverner toutes les Espagnes; et vous voulez jouter ! On vient. C’est elle. Ce n'est personne.
And in the show, the play as known by MA when she decides to amateur stage it doesn't have that monologue yet, but because of the withdrawal/permission/withdrawal of permission etc for the general performance, Beaumarchais is either pissed off enough or out of patience or reckless enough to add it, and so Louis and MA are present at the professional premiere and when Figaro says "what makes you better than me, other than birth? You are simply an avarage man" etc, the camera keeps cutting to Louis who is the only one who gets the full implication, and he leaves, angry and horrified, which reminded me that Feuchtwanger had Louis also be one of the few among the nobility who instinctively understand this is about more than an amusing farce and can sense the long term consequences.
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timeasmymeasure
Re: Marie Antoinette (TV Series, Second Season)
Date: 2025-06-09 09:40 am (UTC)Oh -- I think I must have known this once but I didn't remember at all. Gosh. Yeah, that would do it.
I suppose it's probably more fun to imagine some evil mastermind is behind everything, though.
Yes, but that's just not how Revolutions work. BTW, in Hilary Mantel's A Place of Greater Safety, which is the French Revolution from the pov of the revolutionaries, with the three main characters being Robespierre, Danton and Desmoulins, you have these early scenes where Chloderos de Laclos (as in, the author of Les Liasons Dangereuses, who was in rl works for the Duc d'Orleans, hangs out with some of the revolutionaries before they are revolutionaries with the idea that his guy will get more popular (he was definitely the most popular member of the royal family in pre revolutionary France) while the cousins at Versailles get trashed, but again, he can't even imagine a revolution, he thinks this is all so Louis will be forced to make Cousin Philippe his PM (different title), so to speak.
The tv series can't resist the historical in-joke of letting Cagliostro prophecy that no son of Louis and MA will end up on the throne of France but a prince of the blood from the Orleans line will, and future Philippe Égalité thinks that means him and is gleeful, but of course it means his son (introduced early in s2 as a kid), Louis Philippe, who will in fact be the last French king, full stop. (Since Louis Philippe did live through the original French Revolution, he high tails it out of France practically the moment the February 1848 revolution starts. Been there, Dad lost his head, thanks but no thanks. Anyway, because Cousin Chartres/Orleans sided with the Revolutionaries until he lost his own head, and Louis Philippe got to the throne by a revolution himself - the 1830 one which deposed Louis XVI's last brother, Artois aka Charles X, Lafayette's frenemy from school, - hardcore French monarchists argue that IF there were a King in France again, it would have to be from the Spanish Bourbon line, since the Orleans line discredited itself twice over.
Hee. So the scriptwriters ship MA/Louis and this ship is getting in the way! :)
LOL yes. I mean, they don't treat Fersen as badly as the writers of the Borgias tv series treated Lucrezia's second husband for gtting in the way of Cesare/Lucrezia, because at least poor Fersen is not vilified, but I recognize the same "away with the canon love interest getting in the way of my ship!" impulse. I mean, "canon", since we still don't know whether or not MA and Fersen ever had sex. But they certainly had an intense relationship, he was devoted above and beyond and there when it counted. Why they didn't write him simply as her devoted platonic knight if they didn't want him to get any shippers, I don't know. (Unless it's to characterize Louis as extra noble and devoted, since in the tv show he accepts Fersen after some struggle for the sake of MA's happiness and better genetics for the younger kids.)
She doesn't want to bring the monarchy down or has anything to avenge, she just wants to have a piece of the cake, as much as she can get, and Rohan is a great mark because he's just that arrogant and dumb and egotastic. Most of the time, you cheer for her pulling this off.
This all sounds fantastic!
It was definitely my favourite thing about s2. I don't know why anyone would feel they have to woobify Jeanne or give her backstory trauma or an actual revolutionary agenda. The 18th century was full of charismatic inventive grifters and conpeople (see also: Casanova, and the alchemy boys Cagliostro & St. Germain), and she was probably the most succesful publically known female one.
Incidentally, having read Feuchtwanger's novel, you might appreciate that it has Beaumarchais add Figaro's monologue very last minute - Act V, Scene 2 - in Mozart's opera, he just sings about "oh, these women", believing Susanna actually is now willing to have sex with the count, in the play, that's just his starting point, with this passage being the one that got censorship in a huff, for Figaro continues: Non, monsieur le comte, vous ne l'aurez pas. vous ne l'aurez pas. Parce que vous êtes un grand seigneur, vous vous croyez un grand génie ! noblesse, fortune, un rang, des places, tout cela rend si fier ! Qu'avez-vous fait pour tant de biens ? vous vous êtes donné la peine de naître, et rien de plus : du reste, homme assez ordinaire ! tandis que moi, morbleu, perdu dans la foule obscure, il m'a fallu déployer plus de science et de calculs pour subsister seulement, qu'on n'en a mis depuis cent ans à gouverner toutes les Espagnes; et vous voulez jouter ! On vient. C’est elle. Ce n'est personne.
And in the show, the play as known by MA when she decides to amateur stage it doesn't have that monologue yet, but because of the withdrawal/permission/withdrawal of permission etc for the general performance, Beaumarchais is either pissed off enough or out of patience or reckless enough to add it, and so Louis and MA are present at the professional premiere and when Figaro says "what makes you better than me, other than birth? You are simply an avarage man" etc, the camera keeps cutting to Louis who is the only one who gets the full implication, and he leaves, angry and horrified, which reminded me that Feuchtwanger had Louis also be one of the few among the nobility who instinctively understand this is about more than an amusing farce and can sense the long term consequences.