Probably! These people were pretty good at compartmentalization: one decade you're leading Russian armies, the next decade you're fighting Russians. Actually, writing that out made me realize the guy I'm thinking of, James Keith (I have Keiths on the brain), was still alive when Zorndorf happened, since Hochkirch, when he died, was a couple months later. Do we know if Keith, former Russian general, was present at Zorndorf, Selena? At any rate, he was in the army and knew very well he could be asked to fight a Russian army without batting an eye.
That said, we also know that sometimes there was awkwardness! At least if the story is true that James Keith's brother George, better known as the Earl Marischal, summoned the British envoy to his deathbed in 1778 because "I find pleasure in emitting the last sighs of a Jacobite to a minister of King George."
Sometimes you downplay the awkwardness, sometimes you lean into it!
Do we know if Keith, former Russian general, was present at Zorndorf, Selena?
No idea, Seydlitz was the only one singled out in the descriptions of that battle I recall, because that was the occasion where he kept waiting against Fritz' orders because he knew his charge had to be timed just right. (Which was until 1918 used as an example in Prussian army training, I hear, for how obeying the spirit of the order is more important than the letter of the order and an officer needs to be able to show initiative, too. (But not everyone is the Cary Grant of generals.)
Anyway, it's possible James Keith was there since he was certainly with Fritz' part of the army some months later at Hochkirch, and between Zorndorf and Hochkirch was just Fritz' meeting up with Heinrich a deux plus Seydlitz in Dresden (speaking of awkward, emotionally intense moments...) and I don't think Keith was ever with Heinrich's part of the army.
Pretty much what I was thinking, except that not every regiment is engaged in every combat (I believe there was a battle, maybe Prague? that AW's was not engaged and Heinrich's was). Anyway! Same idea!
And yes, Seydlitz is the one I always associate with Zorndorf. Cary Grant, lol.
Discovery: Varnhagen von Ense says that Keith was not at Zorndorf, he had been left in Silesia. He was initially supposed to be in command there, but he was bedridden with asthma and the Margrave Karl of Brandenburg had to take over. But before the Margrave left, Keith gave him some advice on how to beat the Russians.
Then Keith recovered fairly quickly, and he went to the field camp in Silesia to assume command again. He was on the move in Silesia when he got the news of Zorndorf.
Also, I hadn't realized how pissed off he was at the Russians for his dismissal: when he heard that they had fought bravely, he just replied, "cette canaille!"
Ah, no, it looks like that was me skimming too quickly.
A closer reading indicates Bestushev conspired against Keith and caused him to lose his position of command, at which point he demanded his release from Russian service. He eventually got it, but then he had some friction with the authorities over the terms of his release: they wanted him to promise never to fight against Russia, whereas he was like, "Once I'm out of your service, I'm nothing more than a British subject, and I'll fight who I want." But since he didn't want to go to Siberia, he agreed to read the fine print. It said that if he did fight against Russia, he agreed to be judged by the Russian articles of war. He immediately agreed to sign that, since he was confident that there wasn't a single article saying a free Englishman couldn't fight who he wanted.
So while he did leave voluntarily, it was because he was pissed off at losing his command, and it wasn't on good terms. So much so that when he left, he took ship directly to England, since he was afraid of traveling by land and getting arrested.
But since he didn't want to go to Siberia, he agreed to read the fine print. It said that if he did fight against Russia, he agreed to be judged by the Russian articles of war. He immediately agreed to sign that, since he was confident that there wasn't a single article saying a free Englishman couldn't fight who he wanted.
Also, notice how he's a free Englishman, not a Scot. We've talked before in salon about the prejudice against Scots during this period, and when James is trying to quit Russian service, it's ~1747, i.e., just months after the defeat of the biggest (and final) Jacobite rebellion, the '45.
At least if the story is true that James Keith's brother George, better known as the Earl Marischal, summoned the British envoy to his deathbed in 1778 because "I find pleasure in emitting the last sighs of a Jacobite to a minister of King George." Heh. Interesting that he still thought of himself that way in 1778, long after Jacobite hopes had died and when he had served another country for so long.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
timeasmymeasure
Re: Random escape-related stuff
Date: 2024-08-05 02:33 pm (UTC)That said, we also know that sometimes there was awkwardness! At least if the story is true that James Keith's brother George, better known as the Earl Marischal, summoned the British envoy to his deathbed in 1778 because "I find pleasure in emitting the last sighs of a Jacobite to a minister of King George."
Sometimes you downplay the awkwardness, sometimes you lean into it!
Re: Random escape-related stuff
Date: 2024-08-07 01:50 pm (UTC)No idea, Seydlitz was the only one singled out in the descriptions of that battle I recall, because that was the occasion where he kept waiting against Fritz' orders because he knew his charge had to be timed just right. (Which was until 1918 used as an example in Prussian army training, I hear, for how obeying the spirit of the order is more important than the letter of the order and an officer needs to be able to show initiative, too. (But not everyone is the Cary Grant of generals.)
Anyway, it's possible James Keith was there since he was certainly with Fritz' part of the army some months later at Hochkirch, and between Zorndorf and Hochkirch was just Fritz' meeting up with Heinrich a deux plus Seydlitz in Dresden (speaking of awkward, emotionally intense moments...) and I don't think Keith was ever with Heinrich's part of the army.
Re: Random escape-related stuff
Date: 2024-08-07 03:05 pm (UTC)And yes, Seydlitz is the one I always associate with Zorndorf. Cary Grant, lol.
Re: Random escape-related stuff
Date: 2025-05-03 05:56 am (UTC)Then Keith recovered fairly quickly, and he went to the field camp in Silesia to assume command again. He was on the move in Silesia when he got the news of Zorndorf.
Also, I hadn't realized how pissed off he was at the Russians for his dismissal: when he heard that they had fought bravely, he just replied, "cette canaille!"
Re: Random escape-related stuff
Date: 2025-05-03 11:45 am (UTC)Re: Random escape-related stuff
Date: 2025-05-03 01:49 pm (UTC)A closer reading indicates Bestushev conspired against Keith and caused him to lose his position of command, at which point he demanded his release from Russian service. He eventually got it, but then he had some friction with the authorities over the terms of his release: they wanted him to promise never to fight against Russia, whereas he was like, "Once I'm out of your service, I'm nothing more than a British subject, and I'll fight who I want." But since he didn't want to go to Siberia, he agreed to read the fine print. It said that if he did fight against Russia, he agreed to be judged by the Russian articles of war. He immediately agreed to sign that, since he was confident that there wasn't a single article saying a free Englishman couldn't fight who he wanted.
So while he did leave voluntarily, it was because he was pissed off at losing his command, and it wasn't on good terms. So much so that when he left, he took ship directly to England, since he was afraid of traveling by land and getting arrested.
Re: Random escape-related stuff
Date: 2025-05-05 01:42 am (UTC)Hee, I kind of love that.
Re: Random escape-related stuff
Date: 2025-05-06 03:38 pm (UTC)Re: Random escape-related stuff
Date: 2024-08-08 12:30 pm (UTC)Heh. Interesting that he still thought of himself that way in 1778, long after Jacobite hopes had died and when he had served another country for so long.