cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 47

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We haven't had a new post since before December 25, so obligatory Yuletide link to this hilarious story of Frederick the Great babysitting his bratty little brother, with bonus Fritz/Fredersdorf!

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From:

luzula

What is a vivandière, a hedonist?
It's a female sutler, selling food and wine to soldiers in the French army. I've seen them mentioned when reading military history stuff, but I suppose there were all sorts of cultural associations that went along with the job. Not sure what exactly is implied here--that they slept around and were also prostitutes? But often they were married to soldiers, as I recall.

From:

selenak

Thank you! So basically Mother Courage types?

From:

luzula

Well, I haven't seen/read that, but checking Wikipedia, I suppose so? But as I read in that book about women in the military, there were far more women in armies in the 16th-17th centuries than in the 18th, and the state was much more involved in the supply of food and other necessities in the 18th century.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

but I suppose there were all sorts of cultural associations that went along with the job. Not sure what exactly is implied here--that they slept around and were also prostitutes? But often they were married to soldiers, as I recall.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Duc is using "vivandière" as a synonym for "camp follower", which gets used (not just by him, by many people) as a synonym for "prostitute". In fact, that's the first meaning in which I encountered "camp follower" when I started reading history as a teenager, and it's still my primary association. Actual demographics means nothing when faced with the prejudices and stereotypes of someone like the Duc.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Reading the book on Kepler defending his mother from witchcraft accusations, which Selena recommended and I finally got around to picking up because my wife was listening to a podcast episode where the author was interviewed, I found Kepler's father going off to join the army and Kepler's mother tracking him down and demanding he come home. One of her arguments was that it was commonly known that there were lots of single women following the army around, and therefore lots of extramarital sex with soldiers happening.

This was an absolutely normal and widespread perception of what happened in armies with women accompanying them.

(The book is good, btw, very readable even to my slow-German-reading self. And it does exist in English if anyone wants to read it that way.)

From:

cahn

Oh, cool! Which book is this again? Not that I can read this for some time, I'm still reading my Christmas presents!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

You're still reading Christmas presents from previous Christmases! *cough* Massie.

It's Ulinka Rublack's The Astronomer and the Witch, available on Kindle.

From:

cahn

Well, I haven't actively gone back to reading that yet, lol, though I know I should. Whereas I'm actively reading one of

selenak's Christmas presents right now, and am a little more passively reading one of yours (it is great to read during trips, which I haven't had one of for a while, but I should be having a couple coming up).