Re: Micromegas - Voltaire

Date: 2024-01-17 01:41 am (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard
Oh, neat, a Voltaire write-up! :D

So I've been reading Too Like the Lightning (which I'll post about when I'm done -- it is a book that is interesting to read having gone through salon, though I'm not sure I'd recommend it to salon).

I tried it, because it sounds interesting on paper, I like the author's blog, and I even read the non-fiction book she turned her dissertation into (dry but informative). And a few pages into the Kindle sample, I just Could Not, and I doubt I'll ever try again. (Never say never, but...)

Wikipedia seems to think that the date of publication is indeed 1752, though potentially as early as 1739.

Chronology note: 1752, Voltaire is living with Fritz, 1739, Voltaire has met Fritz a couple years ago. Either way, Prussians captains of the guards appearing in his fic don't surprise me!

a very small lapdog following a captain of the guards of the Prussian king. (I laughed! I assume he's making a dig at the Potsdam Giants there, even though obviously the timing's wrong, as he did in Candide, iirc.)

Maybe, but the small lapdog makes me think of Fritz. Fritz had tall soldiers and height requirements in his army too! He just didn't keep a regiment specifically to concentrate all the tallest men in Europe. But yeah, Voltaire likes to make his digs at FW (who doesn't?) (Besides Stratemann.)

Why was Voltaire against that one and for Catherine beating up the Greeks later? It appears from the conversation in the text because he thought the former was about land, while you told me in salon that he thought Catherine's sally would be about human rights?

You're asking for consistency? :P I think he was getting romantic about his enlightened protege Catherine freeing the Greeks, the way maaaany Europeans would get romantic about the Greek revolution when it finally happened. [Selena will no doubt insert an aside about Byron here.]

I mean, he was Islamophobic, but if you ask me, he was thinking emotionally about the thought of "liberating" Athens, and then rationalizing backwards from there.

He also designed a war chariot to help fight Fritz in the Seven Years' War; he saw the folly and evil of war, but he was by no means a pacifist.

I can't find anything about the Maupertuis expedition running aground on the coast of Bothnia specifically, but a cursory Google search brings upthis source saying "the ship turned out to have a leak, and it had to be stranded on the Swedish coast after a few days";

Well, most of the coast of Sweden is on the coast of Bothnia, especially in our period when Finland is part of Sweden. So if they ran aground on the coast of Sweden, there's probably at least a 50% chance it was off the coast of Bothnia. (Measuring coastlines notoriously gets into fractals, so I'm not going to attempt it. :P I kid, I could google it, but eh.)

there is also this source, which says De Maupertuis first planned to carry out the measurements in the archipelago of the Gulf of Bothnia. He found out, however, that the islands were too low for triangular measurement.

This is in Terrall's (drrryyyy!) bio of Maupertuis::

Only after journeying from Stockholm to Torneå, at the very north ofthe gulf,did they see that the islands along the western shore, although numerous,were too low to be visible at a distance, and hence useless as triangulation points. After exploring the islands near the eastern shore and finding things no better there, they considered the alternatives.

Terrall continues:

Celsius, the only Scandinavian among them, favored waiting for winter and measuring the wholelength of thedegree directly on the frozen suiface ofthe gulf, without bothering with a chain of triangles. (One degree of latitude corresponds to about sixty miles.) This would have meant a much longer and more physically demanding baseline measurement,but would have avoided the inevitable complications of measuring and reducing a whole series of angles. It would also have meant waiting for winter for the dark night sky necessary for the stellar observations that would define the endpoints. The French did not want to put off their operations, however; nor did they trust the ice in the gulf.

Personally, I'm always suspicious when Europeans go to polar regions and don't listen to the locals. :P It's an endemic problem, and part of the reason Amundsen is my fave is that he managed to actually the Inuit seriously and listen to them!

Re: Micromegas - Voltaire

Date: 2024-01-17 11:52 am (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
the islands along the western shore, although numerous,were too low to be visible at a distance, and hence useless as triangulation points
I have been on those islands and I can well believe it. The islands are VERY low and the sea between them is VERY shallow. They are also newly risen from the sea, since Sweden is still rebounding from the Ice Age.

part of the reason Amundsen is my fave is that he managed to actually the Inuit seriously and listen to them!
I had a polar explorer phase and I too like Amundsen! But Nansen is my favorite. Like, he not only crossed Greenland on skis and was on the Fram expedition, he ALSO did a groundbreaking Ph D i neuroscience, did research in oceanography, was part of the peaceful dissolution of the union between Sweden and Norway, and worked for the rights of war refugees after WWI. Also, just look at him, he was such a badass.

Er, sorry for the tangent, but you started it!

Re: Micromegas - Voltaire

Date: 2024-01-17 02:55 pm (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard
So this is where I admit I know all these things *about* Nansen, but I haven't read an actual book dedicated to him and his exploits. I have one on my Kindle, but it post-dates my polar obsession, so I haven't yet read it. He may well supersede Amundsen* if I ever get around to it.

In general, I went through a South Pole expedition obsession, but am very weak on the North Pole. For the same reason I'm all "1764-1772 foreign policy in excruciating detail!" and "17th century Stuarts are not my period." My brain likes to go very deep in particular areas and ignore adjacent areas.

* Or not. I understand that he's a superior human being, but, uh, well, look at who my favorite historical figure of all time is (Fritz). Sometimes "superior human being" is not the criterion by which I judge. :P

Er, sorry for the tangent, but you started it!

Lol, tangents are what we do here!

Polar explorers

Date: 2024-01-17 05:58 pm (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
I have not in fact read a single book about polar explorers (except one, see below), but just their own journals and books. They make for very good audiobook-listening experiences to me, for some reason. But it's been years since I had that phase.

The exception is the Swedish book Expeditionen: en kärlekshistoria by Bea Uusma (in English as The Expedition. I'll C&P from an old DW entry of mine...

Bea Uusma is a fandom-of-one for the Andrée polar expedition. She becomes obsessed with solving the mystery of how the expedition members died, going through various theories and doing original research. The book is also enjoyable for showing her own fannish reactions--from what I remember, she became a physician partly because she wanted to solve this mystery!

So, this expedition is pretty ridiculous. Compared to capable polar explorers like Amundsen and Nansen, Andrée is an engineer with no previous polar experience. He takes along two other engineers and plans to fly across the Arctic in a balloon at a time when no balloon has been in the air more than 24 hours. Andrée calculates that their balloon will be able to fly for 30 days. They do not even test-fly it. It lasts for 65 hours before it goes down on the ice. The three men travel across the ice on sleds that they brought along as reserve equipment. The sleds are very heavy, as they bring along ridiculous things like encyclopedias. Their bodies and the sleds are found on a tiny Arctic island in 1930, and theories about their deaths range from trichinosis to lead-poisoning to freezing to death. Uusma finds none of these believable and constructs her own theory.

Her theory, based on how/where the skeletons were lying and information from their clothes, was that a polar bear attacked them and killed one of them (he was later buried by the others) and wounded another. The wounded man was put in his sleeping bag in the tent, where he later died. The third man died sitting outside the tent with a morphine bottle within reach, and Uusma thinks he committed suicide.

Re: Polar explorers

Date: 2024-01-17 06:12 pm (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard
The book is also enjoyable for showing her own fannish reactions--from what I remember, she became a physician partly because she wanted to solve this mystery!

Wow! I can see why, it seems fascinating.

Compared to capable polar explorers like Amundsen and Nansen

Unfortunately, none of this sounds much worse than Amundsen discovering he needs a plane to take him over the North Pole NOW, before anyone else beats him there. All his attention to detail goes out the window and he's like, "Plane experts? We don't need no stinkin' plane experts!" The whole expedition was so mismanaged it's a miracle he survived it, and not a surprise he didn't survive a subsequent attempt to fly over the Arctic in a plane (admittedly, search-and-rescue missions are by their nature rushed, but nothing about his previous cavalier attitude toward planes is inconsistent with him finally dying in a plane).

It's a bit like Fritz and the War of the Bavarian Succession: times move on, old man does not live up to previous standard. :P

Also, this conversation is reminding me of the 17th century Swedish Vasa ship, which sank after sailing just 1300 meters and is now in a museum that was built just to house this ship (I assume you've been there?). I learned about it at *work*, of all places, because it was used in a conference talk, I think, illustrating the dangers of poor engineering design and how if you're a software developer, you really need to learn the lessons that that failure has to teach.

Re: Polar explorers

Date: 2024-01-17 06:42 pm (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
Well, this shows my own spotty knowledge, since I've only read two of Amundsen's own books (the Northwest Passage one, and the South Pole one)!

It's a bit like Fritz and the War of the Bavarian Succession: times move on, old man does not live up to previous standard. :P
Heh, seems like it.

I have been to the Vasa museum, yes, but it was before my current fannish period, or I would no doubt have paid much more attention! Perhaps I'll visit it again some time. I did visit the Götheborg III this summer, though.

Re: Polar explorers

Date: 2024-01-18 01:59 am (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard
Well, this shows my own spotty knowledge, since I've only read two of Amundsen's own books (the Northwest Passage one, and the South Pole one)!

Yeah, those were much greater accomplishments on his part, but you still have to watch out, because he's a great spin doctor and skips right over his most major mistakes, at least on the South Pole expedition (I know less about the Northwest Passage one).

Re: Polar explorers

Date: 2024-01-18 09:11 am (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
Good to know, if I ever venture into reading about polar exploration again!

(By the way, it's obvious that there is somewhere a polar exploration fandom which has pet names for pairings, and who fill each other's requests for Yuletide etc. It's kind of weird to see those fics from outside, because they've obviously developed a lot of fanon around it.)

Re: Polar explorers

Date: 2024-01-19 02:51 pm (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard
Oh, interesting. I see these fics come up in Yuletide and occasionally browse one of them, but due to my difficulty reading fiction (see also Too Like the Lightning), I haven't really read them, so I didn't realize they had a fandom with lots of fanon. Good for them!

Re: Polar explorers

Date: 2024-01-19 04:14 pm (UTC)
aella_irene: (Default)
From: [personal profile] aella_irene
I have very fond memories of the Vasa Museum, particularly the moment when the tour guide attempted to argue that it sank due to the maths not being invented yet. (It was in fact due to a combination of several people dying, and the King knowing what he wanted, despite minor details of it being possible.)

Re: Micromegas - Voltaire

Date: 2024-01-17 08:00 am (UTC)
selenak: (Voltaire)
From: [personal profile] selenak
The Micromegas is something I've been meaning to read for a while but never did, so thank you very much indeed for the write-up! It sounds very Voltairian indeed.

the narrator of TLtL calls perhaps the first science-fiction story.

Cyrano de Bergerac wrote a satirical novel about the main character attempting to visit the moon which I haven't read but which I knew about, and wiki tells me is inspired by Lucian, and also published in 1657, i.e. definitely predating Voltaire by two generations at least.

Why was Voltaire against that one and for Catherine beating up the Greeks later? It appears from the conversation in the text because he thought the former was about land, while you told me in salon that he thought Catherine's sally would be about human rights?

What Mildred said, and also, yes, the Turk/Russian war of 1736 - 1739 features a Russia ruled by a very unenlightened autocrat and Voltaire sees it being solely about a land grab, i.e. whoever wins, the people exchange just one tyrant for another, whereas Catherine later in his rationalisation is enlightened and will free the Greeks from Ottoman tyranny and will bring back freedom back to Greece.

The European enthusiasm for the Greek War of Independence decades later, btw, was also a weird illustration of how many projected themselves onto the idea of Ancient Greece as the source of European civilisation while being angry and sneering at the present day Greeks for not fitting with their idea of how the descendants of Pericles and Leonidas should be like once non-Greek volunteers got there. (Not Byron himself, though, not least because as a young man on the Grand Tour, he'd actually been to Greece before joining the Independence War years later, so he knew the country and the people.) If you read travelogues (again, not Byron's) in prose or verse from the first two decades of the 19th century, there is a lot of anti-Greek bias, and Greek interpreters or tradespeople show up as cowardly and treacherous, especially in accounts written by English folk, with the not so subtext that the TRUE heirs of ancient Greece are, of course, you guessed it. And post War of Independence you get that attitude by other Europeans, especially the Germans, as well. (Shadows of this show up periodically even now when the Brits have to justify keeping the Elgin marbles.)

Now Voltaire obviously never visited Greece, but I think if he had, given that quote about how awful it is to think of the Muslims disgracing the tombs of *insert heroes of Ancient Greece* etc., is that the actual Greeks were deeply and intensely religious and far more imprinted and relating to their Byzantine past than to the pre Christian one. At that point, and not only then. I remember visiting the Athens Book Fair in the year where everyone was talking about the upcoming visit of the Pope (the first by a Pope to Greece), and would he apologize for the sacking of Constantinople by the Latin Crusaders in 1204. Constantinople and the Byzantine era was the big, big topic and identification point. Since Voltaire's beef was with very strictly organized religion in general, God knows what he would have made of the Greek Orthodox Church. (Or the Russian one, but he never encountered that one in practice, either.)

1739 vs 1752 - if that's the debated year of publication, do we have a likely year of origin? I mean, given how long it took for the Pucelle to get officially printed for censorship reasons, I can believe there are decades in between, but if 1739 is possible, I take it there are reasons to believe (as in, maybe references in his letters?) that Voltaire wrote it in the later 1730s?

Re: Micromegas - Voltaire

Date: 2024-01-18 06:27 am (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard
I can access both the article with the summary as well as the book arguing for 1739, and I gave them both a quick skim earlier this evening. I'll try to summarize for salon in the next few days, but no promises.

ETA: Or there's my tried-and-true "send to Selena" approach. ;) It's only about 30 pages total. Selena, let me know if you want them.
Edited Date: 2024-01-18 06:30 am (UTC)

Re: Micromegas - Voltaire

Date: 2024-01-18 07:29 am (UTC)
selenak: (Default)
From: [personal profile] selenak
Next week, maybe. I have something major coming up on Sunday for which I must prepare.

Re: Micromegas - Voltaire

Date: 2024-01-18 10:51 pm (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard
Apparently I forgot to hit enter on this?

What Mildred said, and also, yes, the Turk/Russian war of 1736 - 1739 features a Russia ruled by a very unenlightened autocrat and Voltaire sees it being solely about a land grab, i.e. whoever wins, the people exchange just one tyrant for another

My current plan is to cover the 1730s next time I feel the urge to study foreign policy, so hopefully we can learn about this war sometime in 2024!

Thank you for the additional Byron context! I knew just enough to prompt you. :)

there is a lot of anti-Greek bias, and Greek interpreters or tradespeople show up as cowardly and treacherous, especially in accounts written by English folk, with the not so subtext that the TRUE heirs of ancient Greece are, of course, you guessed it.

Haha, exactly like Orlov.

(I had a response here on the 1739 vs. 1752 question, but Cahn has already responded.)

Re: Micromegas - Voltaire

Date: 2024-01-17 11:53 am (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
I have read Too Like the Lightning and half of the sequel, but I abandoned it because so much of the politics were tied up in sexual power games in a way that I didn't enjoy.

Re: Micromegas - Voltaire

Date: 2024-01-18 09:07 am (UTC)
luzula: a Luzula pilosa, or hairy wood-rush (Default)
From: [personal profile] luzula
Yeah, definitely more of that in the sequel. And I was sometimes genuinely unsure whether a scene was rape or not.

Re: Micromegas - Voltaire

Date: 2024-01-19 12:48 am (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard
It's unsureness all the way down, I see!

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