Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 46

[cahn]

Background: The kids' school has a topic for "Unit" every trimester that a lot of their work (reading, writing, some math) revolves around. These topics range from time/geographic periods ('Colonial America') to geography ('Asia') to science ('Space') to social science ('Business and Economics'). (I have some issues with this way of doing things, but that's a whole separate post.) Anyway, for Reasons, they have had to come up with a new topic this year, and E's 7/8 class is doing "World Fairs" as their new topic.

Me: I know E's teacher is all about World Fairs and I know she is great and will do a good job. But I feel like if we had a different teacher who wasn't so into World Fairs, they wouldn't do such a good job and another topic would be better.
Me: Like... the Enlightenment!
D: Heh, you could teach that! But you'd have to restrain yourself from making everything about Frederick the Great.
Me: But that's the thing! Everyone does relate to each other in this time period! Voltaire -- and his partner Émilie du Châtelet, who was heavily involved in the discourse of conservation of energy and momentum -- well, I've told you Voltaire had a thing with Fritz -- and then there's Empress Maria Theresa, who went to war with him a few times -- and Catherine the Great --
D, meditatively: You know --
Me: *am innocently not warned even though this is the same tone of voice that is often followed by, say, a bad pun*
D: -- it's impressive how everyone from this 'the Great' family is so famous!
Me: *splutters*
D, thoughtfully: But of course there's probably selection bias, as the ones who aren't famous don't get mentioned. You never see 'Bob the Great' in the history books...
Me: *splutters more*

Comments

More about Overbury

[selenak]

What reading up on the early Stuarts also told me: Thomas Overbury, the guy who was Robert Carr's secretary and advisor and what not who coached him in the pre Frances part of his life was deeply unpopular. Edward Coke, who was the prosecuting lawyer against the non-noble defendants, painted him as a saintly victim, but Francis Bacon, who prosecuted Frances and Robert Carr/Somerset because they were nobles and thus were tried in the House of Lords, knew that his audience had actually met Overbury and in his resume basically said "Yes, we all know Overbury was a jerk, but he still didn't deserve to be murdered". Overbury was a minor poet and wit, and clearly saw himself as the brains of the operation, which he probably was. (Carr/Somerset does not come across as particularly bright at any time in his life.) James did notice and resent it. In one of the few surviving letters by him to Carr/Somerset (most of these letters were confiscated when Carr was arrested and while Francis Bacon, who led the case against Somerset, read them, he was discreet enough to destroy them - but James knew he'd read them, which didn't make Francis Bacon more popular with him), he says that people say that Robert Carr rules him (James) and Overbury rules Robert Carr, and this must stop.

It didn't help that Overbury was incredibly jealous and possessive. James doesn't seem to have minded any of his faves getting married - he was fine with Frances and very nice and supportive of Katherine, the heiress Buckingham married, calling her "Kate" in his letters to Buckingham, and when Buckingham is off with Charles on their ill fated journey to Spain, James keeps updating Buckingham on how his wife and kids are doing. Now maybe this was because James knew as King he'd always be his favourites' priority (or should be - one of the reasons for Robert Carr's downfall was that he didn't prioritize James anymore), or maybe it was the misogyny of the day which assumed that women could not never have such deep feelings and thoughts like the men, or maybe both. But still, the fact is that James was supportive of his faves getting married, and Overbury was the one throwing jealous tantrums, and not just because Frances as a Howard was a part of the opposing faction he didn't want Carr/Somerset to ally with.

Ironically, Overbury in his raging letters from the Tower to Carr/Somerset claims to have written the early love letters to Frances when Somerset was wooing her, and says basically "but don't you remember, it was all supposed to be a joke on her, to humiliate her!" and then Somerset went and actually fell in love with Frances and pursued her for real and didn't listen to Overbury anymore. That Somerset thought he was the lead in a rom-com when everyone else was playing Game of Thrones explains a lot. Said raging and jealous letters written during Overbury's time in the Tower also contain a "there are things I could say!" threat, which helps explaining what I was wondering about when first hearing about the entire affair, i.e. why kill Overbury when he's already in the Tower and the marriage has happened. Now Frances in her confession took the entire blame on herself, i.e. she insisted her husband had nothing to do with it. But for my money, he had more to loose, given that it was his secrets Overbury as his secretary had been privy to. And of course James' readiness to put Overbury in the Tower to begin with - for no better reason than Overbury refusing a job as envoy in Moscow - is also explained by the fact James resented the idea that his fave had a fave and that Overbury was pulling the strings. (If you think about it, putting Overbury into the Tower for such a reason goes against the Magna Charta and is just the kind of abuse of (noble) rights by the King that got everyone so upset when Charles I. was the one doing it later, and it's telling of how little Overbury was liked that no one protested on his behalf when it happened.

Re: More about Overbury

[cahn]

Francis Bacon, who prosecuted Frances and Robert Carr/Somerset because they were nobles and thus were tried in the House of Lords, knew that his audience had actually met Overbury and in his resume basically said "Yes, we all know Overbury was a jerk, but he still didn't deserve to be murdered".

Gosh, I mean, it's a reasonable argument, but when that's the best your counsel can come up with...

And of course James' readiness to put Overbury in the Tower to begin with - for no better reason than Overbury refusing a job as envoy in Moscow - is also explained by the fact James resented the idea that his fave had a fave and that Overbury was pulling the strings. (If you think about it, putting Overbury into the Tower for such a reason goes against the Magna Charta and is just the kind of abuse of (noble) rights by the King that got everyone so upset when Charles I. was the one doing it later

Ohhhh. Yeah, I hadn't thought of that. Heh to everyone disliking Overbury just that much!