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cahnBackground: The kids' school has a topic for "Unit" every trimester that a lot of their work (reading, writing, some math) revolves around. These topics range from time/geographic periods ('Colonial America') to geography ('Asia') to science ('Space') to social science ('Business and Economics'). (I have some issues with this way of doing things, but that's a whole separate post.) Anyway, for Reasons, they have had to come up with a new topic this year, and E's 7/8 class is doing "World Fairs" as their new topic.
Me: I know E's teacher is all about World Fairs and I know she is great and will do a good job. But I feel like if we had a different teacher who wasn't so into World Fairs, they wouldn't do such a good job and another topic would be better.
Me: Like... the Enlightenment!
D: Heh, you could teach that! But you'd have to restrain yourself from making everything about Frederick the Great.
Me: But that's the thing! Everyone does relate to each other in this time period! Voltaire -- and his partner Émilie du Châtelet, who was heavily involved in the discourse of conservation of energy and momentum -- well, I've told you Voltaire had a thing with Fritz -- and then there's Empress Maria Theresa, who went to war with him a few times -- and Catherine the Great --
D, meditatively: You know --
Me: *am innocently not warned even though this is the same tone of voice that is often followed by, say, a bad pun*
D: -- it's impressive how everyone from this 'the Great' family is so famous!
Me: *splutters*
D, thoughtfully: But of course there's probably selection bias, as the ones who aren't famous don't get mentioned. You never see 'Bob the Great' in the history books...
Me: *splutters more*
Me: I know E's teacher is all about World Fairs and I know she is great and will do a good job. But I feel like if we had a different teacher who wasn't so into World Fairs, they wouldn't do such a good job and another topic would be better.
Me: Like... the Enlightenment!
D: Heh, you could teach that! But you'd have to restrain yourself from making everything about Frederick the Great.
Me: But that's the thing! Everyone does relate to each other in this time period! Voltaire -- and his partner Émilie du Châtelet, who was heavily involved in the discourse of conservation of energy and momentum -- well, I've told you Voltaire had a thing with Fritz -- and then there's Empress Maria Theresa, who went to war with him a few times -- and Catherine the Great --
D, meditatively: You know --
Me: *am innocently not warned even though this is the same tone of voice that is often followed by, say, a bad pun*
D: -- it's impressive how everyone from this 'the Great' family is so famous!
Me: *splutters*
D, thoughtfully: But of course there's probably selection bias, as the ones who aren't famous don't get mentioned. You never see 'Bob the Great' in the history books...
Me: *splutters more*
1764-1772 Foreign policy: Austria: Partitions, partitions, partitions
Date: 2024-01-12 07:04 pm (UTC)Which, may I remind you, is from 1783, post Russo-Turkish War and post Crimean acquisitions, because it's the closest I could come to the 1772 map I really wanted.
Catherine: Okay, it's 1770, year of my army's parade of triumphs through Ottoman territory, and I am drunk on success! I say if you want to make peace with me, I keep control of Poland and some ports on the Black Sea, plus Crimea, Wallachia, and Moldavia become nominally independent Russian satellites!
Kaunitz: Hell to the no. MT and Joseph, what say we ally with Turkey and maybe Prussia, on terms that say we get to keep Zips and part of Wallachia, and in return Prussia can get Courland if they want to join us, or stay neutral if not.
Joseph: Pipe dream. Fritz will never agree, and we don't want to provoke him. Also, war in Turkey is not something we can win. Let's let Russia and Turkey duke it out for at least another year.
Kaunitz: I want war with Russia, even if we have to do it single-handedly.
MT and Joseph: Dude. Chill out. Do you not remember the last war? The Seven Years' War that just ended a few years ago?
MT: I am done with war.
Joseph: I'm not, but these are not the terms on which I want to wage a war of aggression.
Now it's 1771.
MT: Instead of partitioning, we should pressure Russia and Turkey to make peace. What terms would you want, Catherine? We're willing to collaborate with Prussia to make peace.
Catherine: Well, let's see. [Terms quoted from Isabel de Madariaga.]
* The ports of Azov and Taganrog on the Black Sea.
* Free commercial navigation for Russia on the Black Sea.
* An amnesty for all Turkish subjects who had taken the Russian side in the war.
* The retention of an island in the Archipelago if one were captured.
* The independence of those Tartars who should have thrown off the yoke of the Porte (a reference to the proposed Russian occupation of the Crimea)
* Occupation of Moldavia and Wallachia for long enough for Russia to compensate herself from their revenue for the costs of the war.
Frederick: I may be your ally, but OMG no.
Joseph/MT/Kaunitz: We are seconding Fritz hard on this one.
Frederick: How about Azov, navigation on the Black Sea, and some slight territorial adjustments in the Caucausus?
Catherine: And give up all my conquests? My army is on a ROLL! Gambit declined.
Frederick: I am disliking all the subsidies I have to pay to my ally Russia, so I want this war to end, but I have just heard an intriguing proposal from my brother that could mean territory in Poland for me. So let's drag out the peace talks just a little bit longer, so that Catherine's motivated to let me take my piece of Poland.
Panin (Catherine's minister): So how about, in return for Russia and Prussia taking parts of Poland, Russia will give occupied Moldavia and Wallachia to Poland, instead of giving it back to the Turks? That will compensate Poland, and still mean a Russian victory over the Turks.
Fritz: Works for me. The sooner we can close out this Polish deal, the better.
Joseph/MT/Kaunitz: No. We would rather have the Turks as a neighbor, and if that means breaking with tradition and allying with them to fight you two, so be it.
July 1771:
Austria: Okay, Ottomans, traditional enemy but now weakened neighbor, Russia is becoming a big enough problem that we're willing to form an alliance with you. But the point is to make
lovepeace, not war!Meanwhile…
Heinrich, Catherine: We're still on for partitioning Poland, right?
Fritz: Yes, caveat being "without starting a war." I, for one, have not forgotten the last war. So if we don't want Austria to have any ground to stand on when they go to protest our land grab, we should cut them in on the deal!
Fritz: Hey, Vienna, want to help cut the cake?
Kaunitz and Joseph: We're willing to dicker!
MT: I have an idea that might actually be ethical. How about we agree to give up our claims to Poland in return for you all giving up your claims to Poland, and then we can avoid a war and still sleep at night!
Joseph and Kaunitz: But Wallachia and parts of Moldavia! We could ask Catherine for those in return for letting her have part of Poland.
MT: *sigh* I see I'm talking to myself.
Fritz: Or you could have Parma and Piacenza in Italy! Maybe even some Venetian territory. It doesn't have to be Poland. Lots of options here! You could have some Turkish territory! All I care about is that if the Russians get Balkan territory from the Turks, I get part of Poland to compensate.
MT, Joseph, Kaunitz: Ix-nay on the Russia getting Balkan territory from the Turks! We don't want Russia as a neighbor, could we make that any clearer?
MT: Okay, I *guess* if push comes to shove, we can partition Poland, but we're definitely not robbing the Turks. Did you two forget the treaty of alliance we JUST signed with them?
Joseph and Kaunitz: This is 18th century Europe. Promises aren't worth the paper they're written on. Did you forget the Pragmatic Sanction?
Joseph and Kaunitz: Besides, any Polish territory we get is going to be stupid and pointless. You sure we can't rob the Turks?
MT: POSITIVE.
Joseph and Kaunitz: Okay, fine, Poland it is.
MT: But we shouldn't rob Poland either! Besides, you just pointed out that this will be a net loss for us. We'll have to defend poor, inconveniently located territory and we'll lose the PR war!
Joseph and Kaunitz: But if Russia and Prussia are going to do this anyway, we either have to go to war to try to stop them (hard no, right?), or deal with them gaining immensely at our expense and look like we were powerless to stop them. Is that what you want? No? So the only option is to join them.
MT: This is still a really BAD idea, both politically and ethically. But FINE, if we're going to do it, we'd better get as much territory as possible out of this. We have to get *something* to make up for everything we're losing by agreeing to this.
"She cried as she took, and the more she cried, the more she took."
After the partition:
Kaunitz: Yeah, politically this was a bad move, in hindsight. I should have seen this coming.
Joseph: Yeah, it's giving people the wrong impression of me! I'm actually a very honest man!
No, really. To quote Beales:
Joseph too apologised for it, in a remarkable audience he gave to Stormont at the end of 1772. It was the only occasion in seven years when he allowed such a lengthy political conversation to take place between them. He avowed, 'with an Hesitation and Embarras that is not usual to Him', 'the Anxiety he was under, lest the Polish Business should give the World a false Opinion of His Character'. He knew it looked 'ignominious'.
Beales quoting Stormont:
He added, that one of the Advantages Private Men had over Sovereigns was, that their Duty was generally so clear, that they could not mistake it, and the Line so distinctly marked that they could always follow it, if they pleased; but the Case is very different with Us, added He, We are too often in Situations where there is a number of Considerations to be attended to, a variety of weighty urgent and seemingly opposite Duties, which it is hard to reconcile. In such Cases...it is difficult if not impossible, to hit upon any Determination that is free from Objections...He then repeated, that what He had done, or rather approved, for he was not an Actor but a Counsellor, was from a а Conviction of the absolute Necessity of it, and said, He should be very sorry if the World put a false Construction upon it, and considered Him as a Man of loose and unsettled Principles. That that was far from being the Case, that he meant to be a truly honest Man, both in Public and in Private Life, and was convinced that Honesty was the wisest and soundest Policy, and though it might make you lose some seeming momentary Advantages, which less scrupulous Men would seize, you were always a gainer in the End.
Emphasis mine.
I guess the advantage of a triumvirate is you always get to blame someone else:
Kaunitz: Well, they're the anointed monarchs! I'm just the minister.
Joseph: I am not an actor but a counsellor!
MT: I was pressured into this against my will and better judgment!
As one historian points out, though, it was MT's signature on the partition, all her tears and protests notwithstanding.
Re: 1764-1772 Foreign policy: Austria: Partitions, partitions, partitions
Date: 2024-01-13 08:37 am (UTC)Incidentally, one long term effect of the Austrian participation in the Partitioning of Poland is that not only do you have a lot of Austrian era derived architecture in the relevant parts of the countries (plural, since today they include not just Poland but also parts of Ukraine, for example), but also some of the greatest poets in German in the 20th century, Paul Celan and Rose Ausländer, hailing from what was at the time of their births Austrian-governed. (Today it's Southern Ukraine.)
Re: 1764-1772 Foreign policy: Austria: Partitions, partitions, partitions
Date: 2024-01-13 11:36 pm (UTC)Frederick: I may be your ally, but OMG no.
Joseph/MT/Kaunitz: We are seconding Fritz hard on this one.
Hee!
Heinrich, Catherine: We're still on for partitioning Poland, right?
Fritz: Yes, caveat being "without starting a war." I, for one, have not forgotten the last war. So if we don't want Austria to have any ground to stand on when they go to protest our land grab, we should cut them in on the deal!
Heh, well, I guess he did call that...
MT: I have an idea that might actually be ethical. How about we agree to give up our claims to Poland in return for you all giving up your claims to Poland, and then we can avoid a war and still sleep at night!
So, her idea never made it to Catherine and Fritz? But would they have agreed to that? They wouldn't have, would they?
MT: This is still a really BAD idea, both politically and ethically. But FINE, if we're going to do it, we'd better get as much territory as possible out of this. We have to get *something* to make up for everything we're losing by agreeing to this.
"She cried as she took, and the more she cried, the more she took."
Hee, I was thinking about that line!
He should be very sorry if the World put a false Construction upon it, and considered Him as a Man of loose and unsettled Principles. That that was far from being the Case, that he meant to be a truly honest Man
Things that Fritz never said :P
As one historian points out, though, it was MT's signature on the partition, all her tears and protests notwithstanding.
Well... that's what happens when you continue to hold on to being the place where the buck stops in the triumvirate. You can't really get away with blaming other people for the stuff you signed :P
Re: 1764-1772 Foreign policy: Austria: Partitions, partitions, partitions
Date: 2024-01-13 11:42 pm (UTC)So, her idea never made it to Catherine and Fritz? But would they have agreed to that? They wouldn't have, would they?
As far as I can tell from Beales, it didn't, but I can't be 100% sure. In any case, no, they wouldn't have. Catherine's army was on a roll and she wanted massive gains, and as long as she was getting territory, Fritz wanted territory, and as long as she didn't object to him getting territory, Fritz wanted territory. I think even if Austria hadn't gone along with it, Fritz and Catherine would have divided Poland...and since that's the argument that convinced MT to reluctantly take part in the partition, I think for once I can confidently speak about what would have happened in an AU.