cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 46

Background: The kids' school has a topic for "Unit" every trimester that a lot of their work (reading, writing, some math) revolves around. These topics range from time/geographic periods ('Colonial America') to geography ('Asia') to science ('Space') to social science ('Business and Economics'). (I have some issues with this way of doing things, but that's a whole separate post.) Anyway, for Reasons, they have had to come up with a new topic this year, and E's 7/8 class is doing "World Fairs" as their new topic.

Me: I know E's teacher is all about World Fairs and I know she is great and will do a good job. But I feel like if we had a different teacher who wasn't so into World Fairs, they wouldn't do such a good job and another topic would be better.
Me: Like... the Enlightenment!
D: Heh, you could teach that! But you'd have to restrain yourself from making everything about Frederick the Great.
Me: But that's the thing! Everyone does relate to each other in this time period! Voltaire -- and his partner Émilie du Châtelet, who was heavily involved in the discourse of conservation of energy and momentum -- well, I've told you Voltaire had a thing with Fritz -- and then there's Empress Maria Theresa, who went to war with him a few times -- and Catherine the Great --
D, meditatively: You know --
Me: *am innocently not warned even though this is the same tone of voice that is often followed by, say, a bad pun*
D: -- it's impressive how everyone from this 'the Great' family is so famous!
Me: *splutters*
D, thoughtfully: But of course there's probably selection bias, as the ones who aren't famous don't get mentioned. You never see 'Bob the Great' in the history books...
Me: *splutters more*

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

selenak

Wasn't a General Borck (grandson?) also the one in charge of future FW2 and fell into disfavour with Fritz when daring to make a war critical observation post 7 Years War?

the Prince would have been very mad (fou) if he had not given me a request (demanti).

Playing the guessing game: "The Prince would have been very foolish if he hadn't demanded confidentiality of me to begin with"?

Knyphausen: wasn't one of those also implicated in the Saxon spying which was uncovered as part of the bonkers Klemnent/Clement Affair?

I'm trying to think of how forgiving, or not, FW was with people no Wretched Son. I mean, he was extremely favourably disposed towards Clement/Klement, really didn't want to believe the guy had invented everything, was suddenly against torture or threat of same as an instrument to find the truth and even after having to admit this was a conman still thought he was at least acting from good (i.e. anti Catholic) motivations. Meanwhile, the hate-on for cousin G2 from childhood onwards was pretty consistent, and clearing Flemming and Manteuffel of the charge of having been part of a kidnapping/assassination plot against him plus giving a nonpology for having believed it was political necessity, given they were respectively the most powerful minister and his sidekick of the Saxon state at the time. He had his ups and downs with August the Strong in that neither of them trusted the other but I think they did enjoyed their drinking bouts together, though "forgiveness" didn't really enter it.

Hm... wait! There's the case of young SD whom he was shortly after their marriage both jealous off and suspected of not loving him, and she had to go through the whole "but Frau von SuchandSuch told me it wasn't fashionable to love one's husband, so I didn't show how much I loved you, but I loooove you!" thing via their mutual grandmother. I mean, with SD in general, from FW's pov it probably looks like he keeps forgiving her their marital warfare and influencing his kids against him (while from SD's pov, she puts up with an unspeakable husband), and it wasn't just rethoric for FW, if you think about events like FW, when SD is hghly pregnant with little Ferdinand and they're just past the latest almighty row about the English Marriages, feeding her chicken soup when she's unwell and in bed and calling her "Fieke" and being tender (according to Stratemann who has it from Sophie's governess). But then he was married to her and being a good Christian husband was part of his ideal. Envoys are a different category!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Wasn't a General Borck (grandson?) also the one in charge of future FW2 and fell into disfavour with Fritz when daring to make a war critical observation post 7 Years War?

Yep, and it was a Borck who died as Academy curator and Peter Keith took his place, and Maupertuis married a Borck, and one of Fritz's earliest affectionate correspondants/possible first boyfriend was a Lt. Borck when Fritz was 16, and in general there are Borcks everywhere, that's why I mentioned this one. I haven't been able to figure out how all of them are related, and I have given up trying, but the two you mention may well be a grandson and grandfather. Or cousins--it was a well-networked family.

Playing the guessing game: "The Prince would have been very foolish if he hadn't demanded confidentiality of me to begin with"?

Ahhh, yes, I bet that's it! Thank you!

Knyphausen: wasn't one of those also implicated in the Saxon spying which was uncovered as part of the bonkers Klemnent/Clement Affair?

Not that I recall, and not that I saw when I went back and reread your write-ups for us. What I did see was me going, "FW bought into the fake conspiracy, hook, line and sinker, but did he ever get a whiff of the real conspiracy, the one with Rottembourg and Knyphausen?" So maybe your memory is conflating my question with the actual Klement episode. But I never read any of the actual material on the Klement affair, so maybe Knyphausen is mentioned in something you read that you didn't report!

I'm trying to think of how forgiving, or not, FW was with people no Wretched Son.

Rereading your Klement write-up reminded me of this episode:

FW's reaction, btw, reminds me of something in Bronisch which I forgot to mention in my write up there: FW, like his son with the Sanssouci tableround, liked the fantasy that in the tobacco parliament, he could be relaxed among friends without any formality, so as opposed to everywhere else, people did not have to rise for the King if he entered or left. Now, remember how we found out that as late as1739, there was yet another FW/Fritz crisis, along with speculation about a change of the succession? I think I found a reason. Bronisch said that in 1739, FW invited Fritz to the Tobacco Parliament again. Fritz enters. Everyone rises.

FW: *death glare at all his tobacco chums*

FW: *does not visit the tobacco college ever again*

FW: *does not forgive if people give him the impression they are ditching him for the rising sun, not ever*

But then he was married to her and being a good Christian husband was part of his ideal. Envoys are a different category!

Very true! Also, speaking of being a good Christian, I am reminded that FW was grudgingly willing to forgive G2 on his (believed to be--he recovered) deathbed, as part of his Christian duties, but when the pastor proposed telling G2 about this now, FW was like, "No! Don't tell him until I'm dead!"

Edited Date: 2023-12-24 09:07 am (UTC)

From:

selenak

Right! And sadly there is no mention, not by Hervey or another memoirist, how G2 responded if and when that bit of news was finally delivered. Speaking of the Hannover cousins and FW missing out on the real conspiracy - if SD ever had managed to have FW declared mentally incapacitated a la G3, with, depending on Fritz' age at the time, either herself or Fritz as Regent, how would that have worked out? If Fritz takes over, would he, with a living if powerless father, had gone on an invasion spree to win glory as well, or would he have been more cautious? If this happens before he gets married to EC - does he marry a Hannover cousin or does he disappoint Mum?

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Right! And sadly there is no mention, not by Hervey or another memoirist, how G2 responded if and when that bit of news was finally delivered.

Haha! Well, who knows, we might someday run across it!

if SD ever had managed to have FW declared mentally incapacitated a la G3, with, depending on Fritz' age at the time, either herself or Fritz as Regent, how would that have worked out?

Good question! If we're talking post-EC, then we're in the period of the War of the Polish Succession, and Fritz was *way* too interested in that to pass up an opportunity to invade if one came along. In fact, I say "Watch me, Dad!" would have been an even bigger incentive for a glory-winning invasion spree.

If we're talking when the conspiracy actually happened, when he was circa 14, and before Katte and Küstrin, in the days of the death shroud, we might have gotten a return to F1 days, thus causing FW to grind his teeth in impotent rage at the very outcome he had feared. *Eventually* Fritz might have ended up on a invasion spree for glory, since "king = military = glory" was so much in the water at the time I refuse to believe it was just Küstrin that created Fritz, but probably not immediately (certainly not with SD in charge).

Marriage: I think he marries the Hanover cousin if he's young enough. This is the guy who was willing to write "I won't marry anyone but your daughter" to Caroline. Admittedly to escape Dad, but these are still his "trying to please Mom" and "questioning my sexuality" days.

If he's old enough, yeah, I think he still tries to get out of getting married. A 14-yo who can still be bossed around by Mom is not the same as headstrong 20-something Fritz.

From:

cahn

Hee! Yeah, that tension there between FW's wanting to be a good Christian and... well... FW. I feel like if it fit into his worldview as This Is A Christian Duty, you had a chance, but otherwise, nah.