Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 45

[cahn]

Unfortunately, there was then at Berlin a King who pursued one policy only, who deceived his enemies, but not his servants, and who lied without scruple, but never without necessity.

(from The King's Secret - by Duke de Broglie, grand-nephew of the subject of the book, Comte de Broglie, and grandfather of the physicist) )

Comments

August III: This is how you convert to Catholicism

[mildred_of_midgard]

So we mentioned that some of August's bad PR may have come from the way the Protestants were upset with the conversion. A bit of background on that conversion.

Quick reminder for cahn that August the Strong was born Protestant in that most Protestant of HRE domains, Saxony, and converted in order to become king of Poland. He was married to an arch-Protestant, and his mother was an arch-Protestant. 

Well, young future August III was largely raised by Mom (separated from her husband) and then Grandma, and the one thing they drilled into him from a young age was "Your dad wants you to convert so you can succeed him as king of Poland but NEVER CONVERT!" (Also, no theater, mistresses, drinking parties, or really parties at all.) Mom was a bit of a Protestant hero because she never set foot in Poland despite the fact that she was "supposed" to convert so she could be Queen.

So that goes along merrily until August the crown prince becomes a teenager, and August the Strong decides to send him on a grand tour to Italy starting in 1711, when he's 14. "Just keep an open mind when you get there, I'll make sure you get introduced to lots of nice, smart Catholics!"

August the Strong to his son's guardian: "Keep a close eye on my son. No visiting Protestant churches. No talking to non-Catholics unless you're there to supervise him. No unauthorized discussions of religion. Don't force him to convert, but we're going to make this work!"

Crown Prince August writes letters home that read, I'm homesick, can I come home?

August the Strong: No, politically it's not a good time. Stay in Italy. Go to Rome. The Pope has agreed to treat you like his own son. Wait, no, politically it's not a good time, don't go to Rome. But stay in Italy. In addition to maybe being future king of Poland, I need you to marry a Catholic archduchess so you can also be a future candidate for emperor.

Crown Prince August: Dear Mom and Grandma, I'm lonely and I want to come home, but the one thing I promise is that no matter WHAT, I will remain a faithful Protestant and never ever convert. (P.S. Venice was great, if I can't come home, maybe I could just go back to Venice?)

Crown Prince August: Dear Dad, the people you assigned to convert me are great, I have seen the light, and I am now willing to be a good Catholic.

Protestant contemporaries and historians: OMG! What did the Evil Catholics do to that poor child to break his will so quickly! It must have been horribly abusive, and it broke him psychologically, and that's why he was so easily led as an adult!

Staszewski: Uh, please look at the actual sources. The letters have been misdated, partially quoted, and way too much weight placed on some very sketchy evidence. It is not the case that he held out for a long time and then overnight changed his mind. It seems to have been more gradual, and also, we have zero letters from the period right before his conversion that indicate what he was thinking or feeling. Stop acting like you can draw those kinds of conclusions from the evidence you have! Honestly, his father insisted that he be raised without bigotry, and when he converted to Catholicism, he had a non-bigoted Catholicism. He probably just didn't care as much as his mother and grandmother!

Mildred: Yeah, I could see on the one hand not being super convinced Catholicism was Teh Evil on one hand, and also on the other reassuring the people who raised me that I will of course do what I was taught to do. I remember struggling with my own conversion (from Christianity to atheism) as a teenager, and there was definitely a period of some confusion and inconsistency!

In conclusion, August was 14 when he was sent off on the Grand Tour, 15 when he converted (secretly), and 22 when his conversion became public knowledge so he could marry Maria Josepha, daughter of Joseph I and first cousin of MT. (Which marriage will later lead to Saxony having claims on Habsburg territory during the War of the Austrian Succession.)

Re: August III: This is how you convert to Catholicism

[selenak]

All very interesting, and it also provides context for FW‘s conviction that his favourite con man told him nothing but the truth re: the dastardly Catholic plot of murdering him and turning Fritz into a Catholic. (and remember, one of FW‘s instructions to his kids‘ teachers was that the kids should feel nothing but contempt for the Catholic religion. One of his rare pedagoical successes with Fritz.)

Re: August III: This is how you convert to Catholicism

[mildred_of_midgard]

Omg, you know what? August III's conversion became public knowledge at the very end of 1717 beginning of 1718, and the Klement/Clement affair started in autumn 1718, according to the summary you gave us!

I wonder if this is specifically where Klement got his idea from. And of course FW found it plausible. If all of Protestant Europe was speculating that crown prince August III had been forcibly converted, despite the strictest of Protestant upbringings, so that he could marry an Austrian archduchess...

Okay, how did none of the sources you read on Klement mention this? Maybe they did, and you just didn't find it worthy of passing on because August III was not really known to salon in those days.

Re: August III: This is how you convert to Catholicism

[cahn]

Mildred: Yeah, I could see on the one hand not being super convinced Catholicism was Teh Evil on one hand, and also on the other reassuring the people who raised me that I will of course do what I was taught to do.

Yeah, I could see it being even more confusing given that he's apparently getting these mixed messages from mom and dad! There's a reason why mixed-faith marriages are generally frowned on by the faiths involved...