cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 45

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Unfortunately, there was then at Berlin a King who pursued one policy only, who deceived his enemies, but not his servants, and who lied without scruple, but never without necessity.

(from The King's Secret - by Duke de Broglie, grand-nephew of the subject of the book, Comte de Broglie, and grandfather of the physicist) )

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From:

mildred_of_midgard

Thank you so much for tracking down the original quote via Droysen to Arneth to the actual report! I was hoping you would, being the Awesomest Detective, and lo, you did!

I was hoping you'd provide me with the exact citation so I could track it down, and lo, you did! We continue to make a first-rate team.

Speaking of which, one of my questions you didn't answer: do you have any memory at all of Fritz expressing or being said to express an interest in the Polish crown in the early 1730s?

But good lord, would everyone else have been pissed off at Fritz.

To the point where I think it would have been difficult for him to find an ally!

So she is emotionally on edge, but she also needs to keep the Austrians sweet, not just because of the general Bayreuth situation but also because she wants Female Marwitz TO LEAVE ALREADY in the direction of Vienna, the chances for which are probably easier if she makes nice with the Austrian envoy and maybe Female Marwitz' new husband gets offered a good job by MT.

Very plausible!

Mind you, bring this up could also simply have been something to say that sounded useful to the Austrian envoy she wants to keep sweet because of Marwitz, but which also doesn't betray Fritz to his arch nemesis (as saying "yup, my brother is totally getting ready for round 2 with THE QUEEN OF HUNGARY" would have been.

True. These Cobenzl reports are very interesting in terms of "trolling or best guess?"

From:

selenak

Speaking of which, one of my questions you didn't answer: do you have any memory at all of Fritz expressing or being said to express an interest in the Polish crown in the early 1730s?

None, though my memory is hardly infallible. All that comes to my mind, though, is him complaining how boring the Rhine campaign was. And he may or may not have included in one of the complaining letters something along lines of "if I was in Stanislas/August's place" , but I really don't remember.

(Unfortunately, being bitchy and racist about Poles and Jews and Polish Jews in some later era letters, though, has clung to my mind more.)

Incidentally: I really think the timing is all wrong. As you said, he's already out of Küstrin and starting to build his not-with-FW life, first in Ruppin, then in Rheinsberg. Yes, he'd like to be not married, but he's made that deal, and also, if he becomes King of Poland divorce won't be in the cards, either. And then there are those powerful Polish noble families and the Sejim. Very much not what a budding autocrat used to the Prussian nobility as tamed by FW would want having to deal with. AAAAAND then there's the "you and what army?" question, because as opposed to 1740 onwards, he doesn't have those troops and the treasure at his personal disposal, he'd have to beg FW for both.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

And he may or may not have included in one of the complaining letters something along lines of "if I was in Stanislas/August's place" , but I really don't remember.

Oh, that's ringing a faint bell, now that you mention it. Although I seem to recall Fritz wargaming what he would do in FW's shoes. *scratches head*

Okay, AvB, our Hungarian post-WWI Habsburg royalist gives us Fritz siding with Stanislaus:

Openly, Berlin sided with the protegé of France (Stanislaus Lescinsky, father-in-law of Louis XV) in Danzig, and Friedrich Wilhelm openly toasted Stanislaus at his table round. But just as hostile, only even more openly hurtful, was the attitude of Crown Prince Friedrich. Often he bet with the Saxon envoy Manteuffel that the Elector would not remain King of Poland. In a converastion with Manteuffel, he prophecied the defeat of August, as French and Swedish troops as support counting up to 10 - 21 000 men would be on their way in order to push the election of Stanislaus through by force, who because of Prussia's neutrality would be able to land on Prussian soil. Manteuffell, a practised diplomat, replied that such a solution would be more than welcome to Saxony and Russia, since this way the arena of war would be shifted to much more suitable terrain and one would at last meet troops one could fight as enemies. At the first sign of a landing the united Saxon and Russian army would be able to march against the French, since because of Prussia's neutrality Prussia could not possibly object to letting the Saxons march through Prussian territory. Friedrich was struck by this very logical reply, and returned indiginant that Prussia was no playground for foreign armies. At last, he stated that as opposed to his original plan of war, the French and the Swedes should land in Stralsund which belonged to the Swedes.

And also:

Manteuffel managed to find out that Friedrich planned on immediately after his accession to the throne supporting the Polish anti King Stanislaus Lescynski with a corps of his troops, which amounted to an open attack.

Which we questioned, but it may be what you were thinking of.

But neither of those is Fritz saying *he* wants to be King of Poland.

Incidentally: I really think the timing is all wrong.

Same, for all the same reasons you do. That's why I'm extremely questioning this claim and asking if anyone else has any reason to believe it happened.