cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 45

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Unfortunately, there was then at Berlin a King who pursued one policy only, who deceived his enemies, but not his servants, and who lied without scruple, but never without necessity.

(from The King's Secret - by Duke de Broglie, grand-nephew of the subject of the book, Comte de Broglie, and grandfather of the physicist) )

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From:

selenak

Brühl's marriage and the way it was in rl (the Hungarian Brühl biographer includes tender letters from when they've been married for years and years, so the opposite of honeymooners) vs how it was presented for the longest time in both historical fiction (see Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria) and moralizing historiography - because clearly two career courtiers like the Brühls COULD not have a faithful and affectionate marriage, does not compute - are such a good example of how people often see what they want to see and are wilfully blind for something that challenges their preconceived parameters.

I am reminded of Horowski saying contemporaries *could not cope* with the idea of Philippe d'Orleans the future regent paying that much attention to his daughter qua father, so they must be having an incestuous affair!

Rodrigo Borgia/Pope Alexander VI: Tell me about it! *sighs in sympathy*

FW: You and Philippe the Regent were amoral Catholics who didn't deserve better than having your reputations trashed to the point where affectionate fatherly behaviour is automatically classified as sinister. I would like to pay out that I paid close attention to my kids and micromanaged their lives and no one, not even my direst enemies, ever accused me of incest!

Rodrigo Borgia: If you really want to have a fatherhood reputation competition, I'd suggest we consult our respective offspring, you Teutonic Barbarian. My kids never had an argument about who was worse, myself or their mother.

The one thing we know is that, despite persistent rumors that Brühl engineered his colleague's downfall so he could have sole power (the "cui bono" argument), there is 1) no evidence of this in the archives, 2) Sulkowski continued to treat him as a friend and relative (they were married to cousins) after his exile, sending his kids to stay with Brühl and so forth. So either, if Brühl was involved, he destroyed all the evidence in the archives (which Fellmann points out is possible) and Sulkowski never suspected him, or else Brühl wasn't involved.

That is exactly the Hungarian biographer's argument as well and was narrated by me as such if you'll recall. (I.e. that Sulkowski continued to treat him as a friend and relative and sent his kids etc.) I mean, it's not impossible that Sulkowksi clenched his teeth and did so for the benefit of his children (because Brühl was the most influential man of Saxony now and he wanted the kids to have careers), but otoh that would not have prefented him from venting about Brühl to other people, and not a single letter exists in which he does.

Incidentally, Stabi just provided me with the FS biography Mildred recced and two others besides. Let's see what they say about MT's Franzl!

Philippe the Regent: Then again, you did greenlight your son killing your daughter's second husband when he became politically inconvenient. Whether that's worse or better than executing one's son's lover, I leave for others to judge. I never did anything as harsh to my daughters' lovers or husbands, though of course I married my children for political gain, as did we all. This said, cousin FW, as we know through the corrspondance of my mother with your grandmother, tales of your ghastly temper made it to France even when you were still young, and if I had to choose, I certainly would have prefered his Holiness here as a father to you.

FW: Yes, well, your actual father was the most prominent sodomite of Europe, so your judgment is bound to be horrible. Also you're French.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I would like to pay out that I paid close attention to my kids and micromanaged their lives and no one, not even my direst enemies, ever accused me of incest!

But, FW, you were missing the key element of affection!

(Even AW got heartwarming stories like the time you jokingly threatened to cut off his fingers.)

Rodrigo Borgia: If you really want to have a fatherhood reputation competition, I'd suggest we consult our respective offspring, you Teutonic Barbarian. My kids never had an argument about who was worse, myself or their mother.

Burn!

That is exactly the Hungarian biographer's argument as well and was narrated by me as such if you'll recall. (I.e. that Sulkowski continued to treat him as a friend and relative and sent his kids etc.)

Yes, I recall that part (but thought

cahn might or might not). I think the parts about Sulkowski suggesting a mistress, and about Brühl possibly destroying the evidence in the archives, are new to salon, though?

but otoh that would not have prefented him from venting about Brühl to other people, and not a single letter exists in which he does.

True! The alternative is that Brühl covered his tracks so well that Sulkowski never suspected him, but...Occam's Razor says that if there's no evidence that it was Brühl either in the archives or in Sulkowski's correspondence, it probably wasn't Brühl.

Incidentally, Stabi just provided me with the FS biography Mildred recced and two others besides. Let's see what they say about MT's Franzl!

Excellent! Looking forward to it!

Speaking of books, I just heard back today from the publisher on the elusive revisionist August III bio, and they haven't digitized it yet and can't offer me a copy, so since none of the libraries near me have it and I can't find a copy for sale, we will be waiting until Royal Patron goes back to UCLA in a few weeks and can scan a copy.

I mean, your Stabi also has a copy (predictably--it has all the books!), but while if you wanted to read it and give us a write-up, it will probably be better than any write-ups I will do, but I will still be asking RP for a scan, because this is one I want to read for myself, as part of my Saxon-Polish history kick.

FW: Yes, well, your actual father was the most prominent sodomite of Europe, so your judgment is bound to be horrible. Also you're French.

LOL!!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Speaking of books, I just heard back today from the publisher on the elusive revisionist August III bio, and they haven't digitized it yet and can't offer me a copy, so since none of the libraries near me have it and I can't find a copy for sale, we will be waiting until Royal Patron goes back to UCLA in a few weeks and can scan a copy.

Of course, no sooner do I say that, than a copy is put up for sale online this morning! (I've been checking religiously* every day since June--it took at least 6 months to get the Kiekemal book this way, and I think about as long to get Wandruzska's 2 volume bio of Leopold.) $120 (mostly shipping to the US), but given the difficulty of obtaining this book--sold!

A copy is on its way to me, and then I will read it at some point and tell salon about it at some point. Victory!

* I have to religiously do an anti-sciatica stretch every morning, and it's boring and only involves my lower body, so while I'm doing it, I'll check bookfinder.com on my phone for whatever it is I'm trying to get a copy of.