Interesting! I think my surprise came from reading the letters quickly, thinking, "Oh, he 'Du's Moltke!" and extrapolating too much and thinking he did it regularly, then realizing that there weren't nearly as many as I thought I remembered. If I'd never seen a "Du", I don't think I have batted an eye.
That said, I also didn't realize how surprising it was, so thank you for the historical context!
even adult children call their father Sie.
See, I was thinking the "Du" went with all Frederik's references to Moltke as his father and himself as son, but I didn't know that you wouldn't expect a "Du" there either!
Well, I see why people find these letters so surprising.
Incidentally, I have zero idea of how Danish language habits were in the 18th century
Same, but I'll let you know if that changes. I'm trying to study a little every day.
Note on your translation - my guess is that "erligen" stands for "ehrlichen", i.e. "honest".
Ah, yes, good catch. I hadn't noticed that Google omitted that. (For the sake of speed, all my translations are run through Google and given one quick cleanup--I do not have time to be doing the translation myself, especially if, as here, I have to type up the German because it can't be copy-pasted, or, as with Lehndorff, the copy-paste job needs serious cleaning up.)
I also, looking back, see Google left out two of the "heart"s probably because it's more fluent in English to just say "dearest." But since I was trying to call attention to all the uses of "heart" here: there are 7 total, Cahn!
See, I was thinking the "Du" went with all Frederik's references to Moltke as his father and himself as son, but I didn't know that you wouldn't expect a "Du" there either!
As an example, here's Mozart's last letter to his father Leopold:
"Mon très cher père! Diesen Augenblick höre ich eine Nachricht, die mich sehr niederschlägt. Nun höre ich aber, dass Sie wirklich krank seien! Wie sehnlich ich einer tröstenden Nachricht von Ihnen selbst entgegensehe, brauche ich Ihnen doch wohl nicht zu sagen; und ich hoffe es auch gewiss - obwohl ich es mir zur Gewohnheit gemacht habe, mir immer in allen Dingen das Schlimmste vorzustellen - da der Tod (genau zu nehmen) der wahre Endzweck unseres Lebens ist, so habe ich mich seit ein paar Jahren mit diesem wahren, besten Freunde des Menschen so bekannt gemacht, dass sein Bild nicht allein nichts Schreckendes mehr für mich hat, sondern recht viel Beruhigendes und Tröstendes! [...] Sollten Sie aber wider alles Vermuten nicht besser sein, so bitte ich Sie, mir die reine Wahrheit zu schreiben, damit ich so geschwind als es menschenmöglich ist, in Ihren Armen sein kann; ich beschwöre Sie bei allem was - uns heilig ist."
(Starting the letter in French and continuing in German is fairly typical for the Mozarts.)
On a very different note, behold this fanart depicting the first meeting between Fritz and Voltaire!
Looking more closely at the "Du" letters from Frederik, of the 5, all do so in connection with Moltke as his friend, 3 only use "du" in connection with "friend", 1 uses "du" and "friend" together and then continues using "du", and only 1 letter uses "du" throughout.
7: Only in connection with "friend". Not an apology letter.
10. Only in connection with "friend". Probably an apology letter.
13. Only in connection with "friend". Very much an apology letter.
14. Also in connection with "friend", but first in connection with "heart and father" and throughout. An apology letter.
15. First in connection with "friend". An apology letter.
These are short, so I'm going to write them up.
7: The one you've already seen.
10. Gott seegene und erhalte meinen hertz lieben Moltcke. Sey nicht betrybt, ich bin Dein Fründ und so lange ich lebe, vorbleibe ich sein treuer Freund, und sein and der seinigen Vatter. Gott erhalte Jhm, das ist mein Hertzens Wunsch. Friderich R.
"Sey nicht betrybt" is why I'm taking this as an apology letter.
13. Mein hertz lieber Moltcke. Ich bitte Jhm von Grunde der Seelen um Vergebung; mein hitzieger Kopf ist allwieder dar gewest. Gott seegene und erhalte Jhm, und Gott der Allmächtige lasse all den Seegen und das Wohlergehen über Jhm und seiner gantzen Famillie ergehen, wass in der heiligen Schrifft versprochen ist; der komme auf Jhm und auf sein gantzes Haus. Dieses wünschet in Aufrichtichkeit sein beständig getreuer Freund und Sohn Friderich R.
Gott seegene und erhalte Dich, mein hertzens lieber Freundt. -- Nie mahlen widertuhen.
Ich habe gefehlet, das erkenne ich; sey nur nicht vertrübt, und vorgeb es mich.
14. Gott seegene Dich, mein Hertz und mein Vatter. Mein allerteurester hertz allerliebster Moltcke. Du bist mein Freund und mein Vatter. Pater Peccavi, ich habe gesündieget; ich liebe Dich von Hertzens Grund und vorbliebe biss in mein Grab Dein aufrichtig getreuer Friderich R.
Gott segene und erhalte Dich, Du mein Hertz aller allerliebster Moltcke; Dein bin und bleibe ich, so lange ich mich rühren kann.
15. Mein hertz allerliebster Moltcke, Freünd und Vatter. Jch bitte um Vergebung. Gott seegene und erhalte Jhm. Du bist mein Hertzens allerliebster Freünd, vergib mich um Gottes willen, wen ich Dich beleidiget habe; ich liebe Dich mit Hertz, Muht, und Bluht biss an min Ende, solches vorsichert Dich Din aufrichtig getreüer Sohn, Friderich R.
Now, he does also refer to Moltke as his friend many times in the third person throughout this collection, but I'm thinking the age difference being 12 years makes it possible for him to see Moltke as a friend and a father, as someone whose children he can be a father (and mother) to, apparently as someone he can be a father to (because of the rank difference), and of course as a subject, hence the usual "Er".
Also, 13-15 are from summer 1752, the year of the marriage and the constant apologizing, and 10 *may* be from January 1752, but the year isn't sure.
OH HEY my Danish studies are paying off! I can't read the whole footnote, but I read all but a few words that I didn't know when I first read these letters. :D
And letter 7 is from earlier in 1751, when Louise was still alive. So it kind of looks like all or almost all the Du letters are from an 18 month period that included, but wasn't limited to, the nadir of the Frederik/Moltke relationship. Interesting. Possibly Frederik's trying to compensate with more intimacy.
OH interesting. If you take the 1752 date for sure, then there's only one "Du" letter that *isn't* an apology letter from the "worst of" period. And that one is the one that has no content aside from "I want to see you again," which doesn't *feel* like an apology letter, unless it's a followup to an apology letter and he's getting the silent treatment. But since we have no direct evidence for that, we'll say 3 and possibly 4 of the 5 are apologies during what we think is the worst period.
On a very different note, behold this fanart depicting the first meeting between Fritz and Voltaire!
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahn
Re: Fritz in the Media: The Extra History Series
Date: 2023-03-01 10:33 am (UTC)That said, I also didn't realize how surprising it was, so thank you for the historical context!
even adult children call their father Sie.
See, I was thinking the "Du" went with all Frederik's references to Moltke as his father and himself as son, but I didn't know that you wouldn't expect a "Du" there either!
Well, I see why people find these letters so surprising.
Incidentally, I have zero idea of how Danish language habits were in the 18th century
Same, but I'll let you know if that changes. I'm trying to study a little every day.
Note on your translation - my guess is that "erligen" stands for "ehrlichen", i.e. "honest".
Ah, yes, good catch. I hadn't noticed that Google omitted that. (For the sake of speed, all my translations are run through Google and given one quick cleanup--I do not have time to be doing the translation myself, especially if, as here, I have to type up the German because it can't be copy-pasted, or, as with Lehndorff, the copy-paste job needs serious cleaning up.)
I also, looking back, see Google left out two of the "heart"s probably because it's more fluent in English to just say "dearest." But since I was trying to call attention to all the uses of "heart" here: there are 7 total, Cahn!
Frederik: I just have a lot of feelings!
Re: Fritz in the Media: The Extra History Series
Date: 2023-03-02 03:46 pm (UTC)As an example, here's Mozart's last letter to his father Leopold:
"Mon très cher père!
Diesen Augenblick höre ich eine Nachricht, die mich sehr niederschlägt. Nun höre ich aber, dass Sie wirklich krank seien! Wie sehnlich ich einer tröstenden Nachricht von Ihnen selbst entgegensehe, brauche ich Ihnen doch wohl nicht zu sagen; und ich hoffe es auch gewiss - obwohl ich es mir zur Gewohnheit gemacht habe, mir immer in allen Dingen das Schlimmste vorzustellen - da der Tod (genau zu nehmen) der wahre Endzweck unseres Lebens ist, so habe ich mich seit ein paar Jahren mit diesem wahren, besten Freunde des Menschen so bekannt gemacht, dass sein Bild nicht allein nichts Schreckendes mehr für mich hat, sondern recht viel Beruhigendes und Tröstendes! [...] Sollten Sie aber wider alles Vermuten nicht besser sein, so bitte ich Sie, mir die reine Wahrheit zu schreiben, damit ich so geschwind als es menschenmöglich ist, in Ihren Armen sein kann; ich beschwöre Sie bei allem was - uns heilig ist."
(Starting the letter in French and continuing in German is fairly typical for the Mozarts.)
On a very different note, behold this fanart depicting the first meeting between Fritz and Voltaire!
"Du" in letters
Date: 2023-03-03 09:36 pm (UTC)Looking more closely at the "Du" letters from Frederik, of the 5, all do so in connection with Moltke as his friend, 3 only use "du" in connection with "friend", 1 uses "du" and "friend" together and then continues using "du", and only 1 letter uses "du" throughout.
7: Only in connection with "friend". Not an apology letter.
10. Only in connection with "friend". Probably an apology letter.
13. Only in connection with "friend". Very much an apology letter.
14. Also in connection with "friend", but first in connection with "heart and father" and throughout. An apology letter.
15. First in connection with "friend". An apology letter.
These are short, so I'm going to write them up.
7: The one you've already seen.
10. Gott seegene und erhalte meinen hertz lieben Moltcke. Sey nicht betrybt, ich bin Dein Fründ und so lange ich lebe, vorbleibe ich sein treuer Freund, und sein and der seinigen Vatter. Gott erhalte Jhm, das ist mein Hertzens Wunsch.
Friderich R.
"Sey nicht betrybt" is why I'm taking this as an apology letter.
13. Mein hertz lieber Moltcke. Ich bitte Jhm von Grunde der Seelen um Vergebung; mein hitzieger Kopf ist allwieder dar gewest. Gott seegene und erhalte Jhm, und Gott der Allmächtige lasse all den Seegen und das Wohlergehen über Jhm und seiner gantzen Famillie ergehen, wass in der heiligen Schrifft versprochen ist; der komme auf Jhm und auf sein gantzes Haus. Dieses wünschet in Aufrichtichkeit sein beständig getreuer Freund und Sohn Friderich R.
Gott seegene und erhalte Dich, mein hertzens lieber Freundt. -- Nie mahlen widertuhen.
Ich habe gefehlet, das erkenne ich; sey nur nicht vertrübt, und vorgeb es mich.
14. Gott seegene Dich, mein Hertz und mein Vatter. Mein allerteurester hertz allerliebster Moltcke. Du bist mein Freund und mein Vatter. Pater Peccavi, ich habe gesündieget; ich liebe Dich von Hertzens Grund und vorbliebe biss in mein Grab Dein aufrichtig getreuer
Friderich R.
Gott segene und erhalte Dich, Du mein Hertz aller allerliebster Moltcke; Dein bin und bleibe ich, so lange ich mich rühren kann.
15. Mein hertz allerliebster Moltcke, Freünd und Vatter. Jch bitte um Vergebung. Gott seegene und erhalte Jhm. Du bist mein Hertzens allerliebster Freünd, vergib mich um Gottes willen, wen ich Dich beleidiget habe; ich liebe Dich mit Hertz, Muht, und Bluht biss an min Ende, solches vorsichert Dich Din aufrichtig getreüer Sohn,
Friderich R.
Now, he does also refer to Moltke as his friend many times in the third person throughout this collection, but I'm thinking the age difference being 12 years makes it possible for him to see Moltke as a friend and a father, as someone whose children he can be a father (and mother) to, apparently as someone he can be a father to (because of the rank difference), and of course as a subject, hence the usual "Er".
Also, 13-15 are from summer 1752, the year of the marriage and the constant apologizing, and 10 *may* be from January 1752, but the year isn't sure.
OH HEY my Danish studies are paying off! I can't read the whole footnote, but I read all but a few words that I didn't know when I first read these letters. :D
And letter 7 is from earlier in 1751, when Louise was still alive. So it kind of looks like all or almost all the Du letters are from an 18 month period that included, but wasn't limited to, the nadir of the Frederik/Moltke relationship. Interesting. Possibly Frederik's trying to compensate with more intimacy.
OH interesting. If you take the 1752 date for sure, then there's only one "Du" letter that *isn't* an apology letter from the "worst of" period. And that one is the one that has no content aside from "I want to see you again," which doesn't *feel* like an apology letter, unless it's a followup to an apology letter and he's getting the silent treatment. But since we have no direct evidence for that, we'll say 3 and possibly 4 of the 5 are apologies during what we think is the worst period.
On a very different note, behold this fanart depicting the first meeting between Fritz and Voltaire!
Heee!