cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 41

Now, thanks to interesting podcasts, including characters from German history as a whole and also Byzantine history! (More on this later.)

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From:

selenak

Ahh, the last bit has revealed to me the mistake I made, to wit, I had forgotten that Lehndorff was in the Netherlands twice during the same journey, to wit, first there, then in France, then back to Belgium and the Netherlands where he meets up with Heinrich. All the Christian stuff - and here is actually a lot, he did see much more than the entrance of him - is in the first third of Lehndorff‘s 1768 journey. (Also, Schmidt-L. Files this under Denmark, King Christian of, which is why I couldn‘t find it under C for Christian.) Lehndorff finds him very handsome and amiable and relaxed in his encounters, was invited to a special trip to Leyden at the King‘s side and swears he had an invite to travel on with the young King for the rest of Christian‘s journey but no, duty calls. Now, BEFORE he meets him, after the news of Frederik V‘s death arrives in Berlin, Lehndorff actually notes that the young king is supposed to be very childish for his age and without self restraint, so there were rumors already. But once he meets him, he thinks the guy is adorable. Was Lehndorff dazzled by a crown? Was Christian in a better mental condition away from Denmark? (No mention of Struensee, btw, there is a favourite Lehndorff mentions disapprovingly, but by the name of Holck or something like that.)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Also, Schmidt-L. Files this under Denmark, King Christian of, which is why I couldn‘t find it under C for Christian.

Aha! I looked hard under C, couldn't find it, and would have checked "Denmark" next, only after an hour or more of cleaning up the OCR text, I needed a break and figured if I posted, you would take it from there. We make a good team. :D

Lehndorff finds him very handsome and amiable and relaxed in his encounters, was invited to a special trip to Leyden at the King‘s side and swears he had an invite to travel on with the young King for the rest of Christian‘s journey but no, duty calls.

I have a feeling that much like rereading Wilhelmine's memoirs after a couple years of salon paid off, rereading Lehndorff would pay off.

Now, BEFORE he meets him, after the news of Frederik V‘s death arrives in Berlin, Lehndorff actually notes that the young king is supposed to be very childish for his age and without self restraint, so there were rumors already.

Yeah, I think there were rumors already even when he married CM, but the people trying to marry her off to him were like, "No, everything's fine, just a normal eccentric monarch!"

Hmm, does this sound familiar? Danish Wikipedia:

On 14 January 1766, King Frederik V died, and Christian took over the throne as Christian VII. He was then 17 years old, and even for kings in the 18th century it was not common to marry so early. However, it was the top leadership in the state apparatus, with JHE Bernstorff as the leader, who pushed for the marriage to be speeded up. The reason was that Christian had what those around him regarded as an uncontrollable sexuality, and it was believed that it could be dampened by allowing it to have an outlet in a more appropriate direction.

Because it worked so well the TWO times a minister tried that with his father? Did these guys just really not have any other idea for how to manage an unmanageable monarch? Or maybe they'd heard about Philip V "the Frog" of Spain? (His wives didn't fix his mental illness, but he and the rest of the country were sure as hell better off for the emotional labor his wives were doing.)

Was Lehndorff dazzled by a crown? Was Christian in a better mental condition away from Denmark?

Maybe, but he was extremely erratic in general, and if I'm remembering correctly, he did often make a good first impression (not always), but it didn't last. Good thing duty called, Lehndorff!

From:

selenak

Because it worked so well the TWO times a minister tried that with his father? Did these guys just really not have any other idea for how to manage an unmanageable monarch?

To be fair, it's not just them. As I recall, a lot of courtiers through the centuries were firm believers in the "better wed than burn" saying of St. Paul's and thought this was just the ticket to deal with their prince/monarch.

Reinhold Koser: And then there's me and Gustav Volz, both writing of how Fritz hoped that marriage would tame "the wild spirit of his brothers". Our plural is ever so discreet, isn't it?

AW, whose marriage had already been arranged when FW died, and who was Mr. Chill Family Mediator at this point: Wild...?

Ferdinand, only FW kid to be allowed to marry for love (his niece): ...Spirit?

Fritz to Wilhelmine (because one can't repeat this canon quote often enough for the sheer stunningness): The 20th of the coming month will be the wedding of Monseigneur Henri. I'm not in his confidence regarding his love or his indifference, but I believe that, in all respects, women will do him good.

Good thing duty called, Lehndorff!

No kidding. Lehndorff would have been rapidly disillusioned. But it does add some texture to his repeated protests in 1772 that Christian did not appear mad to him, and his readiness to believe the worst of poor CM and Struensee.

Incidentally, shame Andrew Mitchell had died the previous year (1771), because going by his sceptical reaction when stories about Peter III. having been the worst to justify the coup started to arrive, he might have shown similar scepticism about the "Juliana and the other nobles saved Christian and Denmark from evil Struensee and Messalina!CM" version, and he was one of the people Lehndorff listened to with great respect.

All this said, of course it's a consistent Lehndorff trait to idealize and prettify people he likes and only later talk about their flaws. Case in point: FW2. As long as FW2 is still Prince of Prussia, he's a darling who is consistently nice and lovely and has no flaws. In retrospect, in that one Lehndorff diary that survives from the reign of FW2's son's reign, FW3, he describes the now dead FW2 as a nice but weak man who could easily be swayed by others. In between lie the years where Lehndorff like Heinrich appears to have hoped for a job and found out no, he's seen as a nice has been only suited for social company at best. And when the people Lehndorff liked died tragically, like AW, we never really get to the talking-about-their-flaws stage. I mean, the most critical thing he ever says about AW is that he wasn't a good husband to Luise, and screwed around a lot, but that's pretty much it.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

But it does add some texture to his repeated protests in 1772 that Christian did not appear mad to him, and his readiness to believe the worst of poor CM and Struensee.

Yeah, at one point after Christian's become so erratic that Struensee has withdrawn him to a country house, the people get really upset that they never get to see their monarch. A bunch of them finally stage a march out there and demand to see the king, to assure themselves that he's still alive and not being poisoned. It is eerily like the Womens' March on Versailles, culminating in Marie Antoinette and Louis getting moved to Paris. I got goosebumps, thinking I knew how this was going to end, namely in Struensee's fall.

But insted, they came in the palace, met Christian, and went, "...Huh, he seems really normal and somewhat charming. In short, not at all what we expected based on all the rumors. Okay, guess you can't believe everything you hear." The situation was defused...for now.

Anyway, I think that's the context for Lehndorff having a positive first impression of Christian. Honestly, even if I think of some of the most similar members of my family, my grandmother and my sister, you have to actually know them for a while before you start seeing the weird behaviors.

Incidentally, shame Andrew Mitchell had died the previous year (1771), because going by his sceptical reaction when stories about Peter III. having been the worst to justify the coup started to arrive, he might have shown similar scepticism about the "Juliana and the other nobles saved Christian and Denmark from evil Struensee and Messalina!CM" version, and he was one of the people Lehndorff listened to with great respect.

Ooh, I had forgotten that. Yes, that would have been interesting!

From:

cahn

Fritz to Wilhelmine (because one can't repeat this canon quote often enough for the sheer stunningness): The 20th of the coming month will be the wedding of Monseigneur Henri. I'm not in his confidence regarding his love or his indifference, but I believe that, in all respects, women will do him good.

MAN we were just talking about Philippe marrying women against his inclinations... FRIIIIIITZ!