cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 41

Now, thanks to interesting podcasts, including characters from German history as a whole and also Byzantine history! (More on this later.)

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From:

selenak

And as much as Elizaveta seems to have been obsessed with her appearance, she and Catherine might well have had other reasons for liking men's clothes.

Absolutely. Hooray for comfortable garnments! (BTW, little known fact: Charles II's wife, Catherine of Braganza, very Catholic, very conventional, still loved wearing male clothing. I dare say she did it for comfort rather than to show off, too.)

Like Zweig, Barz ships his extramarital pairing, but not nearly as intensely as Zweig ships MA/Axel Ferson. Barz is kind of "meh" on whether Struensee was as much in love with her as she was with him. He thinks that, while Struensee sincerely cared about her and was attracted, he was kind of not the type to be serious about women and have long-term romances. But hey, Barz hopes they had a good time while it lasted (about a year and a half).

Besides the latest Danish movie, A Royal Affair, which brought Alicia Vikander to international cinematic attention and starred currently regarded as hottest Dane Mads Mikkelsen as Struensee, there are no less than three earlier German movies, a silent one, a 1930s one, and a 1950s one, and they all sound by description as focused on Struensee/CM and presenting it as mutual true love, unsurprisingly. I think the comparsion to MA/Fersen is a bit tricky because Fersen had many years to prove his devotion - he met first either when she was still the Dauphine or shortly thereafter, didn't he? - and went above and beyond in the Revolution era when she had no more power and it was all about saving her; rl had presented him with many years in between to fall out of love and look for alternatives. Wheras one and a half years are just - well, then again, it's what Fritz and Katte got, perhaps even a bit more.

At least she doesn't get locked up?

According to her German wiki entry, she was very popular in the era, so much so that after her early death they erected a monument in memory of her. And she adopted a local girl which helped a bit with the loss of her children.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Hooray for comfortable garnments!

"Indeed!" I say as I sit here wearing pants while writing this.

BTW, little known fact: Charles II's wife, Catherine of Braganza, very Catholic, very conventional, still loved wearing male clothing. I dare say she did it for comfort rather than to show off, too.

Oh, very little known fact! I didn't know that. Good for her.

Wheras one and a half years are just - well, then again, it's what Fritz and Katte got, perhaps even a bit more.

I would say a bit more, but yeah. As you've pointed out, there's no reason to believe the Fritz/Katte affair was the stuff of which stable long-term relationships are made, rather the stuff of which Romeo-and-Juliet tragedies are made.

(My inner shipper: Away with you and your logic! :P)

According to her German wiki entry, she was very popular in the era, so much so that after her early death they erected a monument in memory of her.

Yep, she was very popular in Celle, and the monument does get covered in the book (the author gets something right, hurrah!).

From:

selenak

Your inner shipper surely knows that I didn't mean it dogmatically. It's just as possible they'd have fared well in the long term, with Katte as the longer-lived Keyserlingk, basically. We will never know, because FW. And we will never knoww whether Struensee and CM would have burned out within a year more or so or whether they'd been a second Catherine/Potemkin, remaining firmly attached even with other sexual partners around.

The website of Celle tells me there's a permanent exhibition devoted to Caroline Mathilde in the former palace, and also presents photos of the monument and a short explanation about what's depicted. The laurel and palm leaves stand for fame and innocence and proclaim her being innocent of the accusations directed at her. The mother with her children stands in for the love the people of Hannover bear for their banished princess/Queen. The inscription reads: CAROL(ina) MATH(ildis) DAN(iae) ET NORWEG(iae) REG(ina) NAT(a) D(ies) XXII. JUL. MDCCLI, DEN(ata) D(ies) X. MAI MDCCLXXV.
O(rdo) E(questris) L(uneburgensis) P(oni) C(uravit).

From:

selenak

...since I'm just quickly checking Lehndorff's diaries for Danish stuff, there are three entries, all in volume 3, and while I remembered one of them, I hadn't recalled Lehndorff had actually met Christian (when travelling in Holland):

First entry is in July 1771, when Caroline Matilda and Struensee are alive and well and set tongues wagging, not just by having sex but by CM wearing leather pants, and the story is already she and Struensee intent to pull a Catherine and Orlov:

Vom dänischen Hof erzählt man erstaunliche Dinge. Die Königin schläft bei ihrem Leibarzt Strunensee und erscheint vor versammeltem Hof in Lederhosen, ein Tuch um den Hals geschlungen. Sie ist guter Hoffnung, und ihr königlicher Gemahl will nichts davon wissen. Man behauptet sogar, dieses Weib beabsichtige, mit Hilfe ihres Leibarztes sich des Königs zu entledigen. Zu solchen Greueln führt die Lockerung der Sitten!

Then there's the entry I remembered, from during Ulrike's visit, in late January 1772. This is the MESSALINA entry after Juliana's coup:

Wir sind alle mit den Ereignissen in Dänemark und mit der Verhaftung der Königin beschäftigt, die im Alter von 20 Jahren unerhörte und einer Messalina würdige Taten verübt hat. Ich freue mich darüber um des Königs willen, den ich gekannt habe und der mir niemals so schwachsinnig vorgekommen ist, wie man ihn jetzt hat ausgeben wollen. Er war ein hübscher junger Mann, als ich ihn in Holland kennen lernte. Aber man sagt, Struensee und die Königin hätten ihn Medikamente einnehmen laffen, die seinen Verstand geschwächt hätten. Die Königin Juliane, eine geborene Prinzessin von Braunschweig, steht an der Spitze dieser Umwälzung, mit der sie der anderen zuvorgekommen ist, welche die junge Königin plante, nämlich den König für schwachsinnig erklären zu lassen und während der Minderjährigkeit des Kronprinzen die Regentschaft zu führen.

And then there's one from end of April 1772, Ulrike is still visiting:

Es ist noch immer viel von den ungeheuerlichen Ereignissen in Dänemark die Rede. Diese 20jährige Königin hat größere Schandtaten verübt als die berüchtigte Messalina. Sie hatte drei Liebhaber zugleich, Struensee, Daneskiold und Abo. Um den König in beständiger Lethargie zu erhalten, tat man ihm jeden Morgen
Opium in seine Schokolade, und öffentlich gab man ihn für schwachsinnig aus. Ich bin oft erstaunt, wenn ich diesem Fürsten, mit dem ich in Holland so viel zusammen gewesen und den ich als einen sehr liebenswürdigen Herrn kennen gelernt habe, so viel Schlechtes nachsagen höre.

In conclusion, Caroline Matilda is a leather pants wearing man eater who didn't just have one lover, she had three (who are those other two guys, Mildred?), who made Christian mad in the first place by putting Opium in his morning chocolate, and Lehndorff is amazed anyone would describe Christian as insane, because he's met him and found him hot. Good lord.

ETA: After this, I did check Lehndorff's entry about his time in Holland (page 130 ff in volume 3), but Christian does not get mentioned. Perhaps unsurprisingly, because the description in the diary is one about his entire journey, i.e. presumably written retrospectively, not day by day, AND Lehndorff met up with Heinrich in Holland and talks in detail about all they did and saw together. I mean, who can rave about Christian when there's Heinrich around! :) So if Christian did leave an impression, Lehndorff didn't note it down at the time. Or Schmidt-Lötzen cut it, but I doubt it, the royal encounters usually make the cut.

Edited Date: 2023-02-25 03:27 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Good lord indeed! Those are in fact the rumors I remember seeing in Barz's summary of How It All Went Down, so good to know he got that right.

I mean, who can rave about Christian when there's Heinrich around! :)

Certainly not Lehndorff!

(who are those other two guys, Mildred?)
No idea! There's a Magnus Beringskjold, who organized the conspiracy to overthrow Struensee, and there's a Seneca Otto von Falkenskjold, a friend/colleague of Struensee who rose to power with Struensee and fell with him (he was not executed, but he was imprisoned), but if either of them was suspected of an affair with CM, I have no idea.

As for Abo, no mention of him in Barz.

If either of them shows up in the new Struensee books, I'll report to salon!